TOPIC: Safehold I and Mythic Token Ideas

1. Is a token still going to be required to play Mythic Difficulty? Hmmm...good question. I'd say yes.

2. Can Mythic tokens be used outside of Mythic Difficulty? Hmmm...yes.

3. Will there be any ways to get more Mythic transumers? You'd have to make a second Safehold I

Mike Steele wrote: I do understand the line of thinking that might undercut the Safehold I making the three nuggets slotless. Maybe the Safehold I bonus could be changed to something else. It wouldn't impact anyone since none have been transmuted yet.

Players have been working towards Safehold I for more than a year with the idea in mind that the Nuggets would be slotless. If you're going to hold Jeff to something he said 8 years ago, then why is ok to change something from a year ago?

Jeff Martin wrote: 1. Is a token still going to be required to play Mythic Difficulty? Hmmm...good question. I'd say yes.

2. Can Mythic tokens be used outside of Mythic Difficulty? Hmmm...yes.

3. Will there be any ways to get more Mythic transumers? You'd have to make a second Safehold I

I would suggest that the recipe for the Coin and the Mythic Play Token don't require a Mythic Transmuter token.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: So, we will have Non-Lethal, Normal, Nightmare and Mythic DR, but only Normal and Mythic give out Survivor buttons.

Clarification - does this mean the Hardcore difficulty rating is going away?

Sorry...I missed Hardcore. It stays. You will get a non-Mythic Survivor button for surviving any non-Mythic run.

Thanks, Jeff! Those are both great news.

Corey Pressler wrote: Just for clarification, I do recall that having the ioun stones not part of the recipe was promised, but I don't feel like it was ever explained to me why... until now. Just telling me that Jeff promised not to do it 8 years ago never explained why anyone would want that, but from what I'm hearing is its because token collectors don't want to lose those tokens to the transmute. That makes sense and I forget sometimes there is that part of the community. I guess we are all collectors, but it never mattered to me, but I get why it would to collectors. I have no issues with those not being part of the recipe now that I understand. Yes, having the coin of wealth making them slotless make sense.

I'm not trying to make things difficult, I want everyone to be happy.

Let me put a but more detail into that. It's not as simple as "token collectors don't want X."

In 2005 TD created the Ultra Rare Horn of Plenty token. This quickly became the most expensive and desirable token. At various points in its history it traded for $400 or more, as of 2014 it was being listed for sale in stores in prices in excess of $700.

At some point, TD created a policy that they would not reprint the Horn of Plenty token.

In 2015 TD:
A. Created the Amulet of Treasure finding UR token, a token whose effect was quite similar to the Horn of Plenty
B. Announced the Charm of Avarice transmuted token, a token whose effect would include the Horn of Plenty effect.

This engendered a lot of discussion, argument, bad feelings, joy, anger, etc., and was generally a very big deal that caused a lot of waves in the community.

At some point after that, Jeff took it upon himself to spell out the roadmap for future UR Treasure Enhancers, and some other details (such as that the Ioun Stone Gold/Silver/Platinum Nuggets would never be used in a transmute recipe).

That guarantee has been in place and publicly knowable since before any of the nuggets were available.

For 8 years people have made decisions on whether or not to buy, or sell, or hold onto their Ioun Stone Gold/Silver/Platinum Nuggets with the understanding that TD would keep this promise. Their motives could have been financial, or practical, or sentimental, or whatever - it doesn't really matter - TD promised those people something, they acted accordingly, and now TD should not change course.

The Mythic Coin should require one of the mythic transmuters.

The token that permits play at Mythic level should really just be the Safehold I, I think. No need to make it more complicated.

I wouldn't mind seeing something like 4-5 mythic tokens (in addition to the mythic coin) in this first year of release. I think that delivering all mythic tokens right off the bat takes away from the year-over-year "what are we building next?" that drives so many of the players. That said, I think that there should be more mythics in this first wave than transmuters... I wouldn't be averse to seeing, say, 3 transmute tokens with a Safehold I and 5 total mythic tokens being announced/finalized.

It would be interesting to have versatile items, such as:

• a ring that is either +focus or +damage (choose at start of game)
• a staff that is either +focus or +spell uses (choose at start of game)
• an ioun stone that makes you immune to poison (1/room) and grants a hefty save bonus
• boots that provide either +initiative and 1 bonus attack per room, or simply wins initiative 1/game for that character

The players are already going to be invested, so having options with their mythics makes thematic sense to me. Allowing a little versatility can allow a player to apply this to more than a single character, too.

Some snips of David's post.

David Zych wrote: I recognize that difficulty levels are a challenging thing to get right, but they are extremely important to the game, because:

1. every player pays the same (significant) ticket price, and deserves to have a lot of fun!
2. token collections vary widely in power from zero to ludicrous, and the range expands every year as new tokens are introduced
3. some players inherently prefer a higher/riskier level of challenge than other players

I continue to support a conceptual model of difficulty levels primarily balanced around the different "price tiers" of token collection, since this variable is often constrained by players' real-life circumstances.

Normal: balanced for casual players with a ten-pack
Hardcore: balanced for players with a solid collection of rares (and some game experience)
Nightmare: balanced for players with URs
Epic: balanced for players with relics and/or legendaries
...and sure, perhaps...
Mythic: balanced for players with Mythic tokens, if those become a thing

where, if you choose the difficulty that matches your party's equipment level, you can expect to have a good time and a reasonable chance of winning. (From there, players who enjoy extra challenge can play "up" a level, and players who want less risk of failure can play "down" a level)

Adding Mythic difficulty seems like a fine idea to me; throwing away Epic for Mythic not so much.

As someone who has been advocating for a Mythic level to exist now or in 2024 or maybe it was 2023, I agree with David on the importance of not having the exact problem we have now of too wide gaps between difficulties. I would make Hardcore somewhat easier, Nightmare somewhat easier, leave Epic alone, and create Mythic as a level above Epic that scales up in difficulty as build power increases, leaving other levels to stay fairly flat.

As for needing a Mythic token to play Mythic, why? That just reduces the audience for Mythic difficulty. Rather than expect peoplle to chase Mythic, I would just expect people to dump their high power tokens and play Nightmare under the proposed model.

If want a shortcut to Mythic mechanics, I'd just combine legendary mechanics with other tokens in same slot as first drafts and tweak from there.

Mythic Cloak = Pharacus' + Shadowskin
Mythic Staff = Drue's/Drake's with Focus bonus extended to bard with Averon's style damage wheel
Mythic Belt = Surtr's + Deadshot
Mythic Kilt = Dungeonbane + Lucky
etc.

Grizwald wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I do understand the line of thinking that might undercut the Safehold I making the three nuggets slotless. Maybe the Safehold I bonus could be changed to something else. It wouldn't impact anyone since none have been transmuted yet.

Players have been working towards Safehold I for more than a year with the idea in mind that the Nuggets would be slotless. If you're going to hold Jeff to something he said 8 years ago, then why is ok to change something from a year ago?

Context is important.

Jeff made the Nuggest declaration unprompted, and in the wake of probably the most significant token controversy in the history of True Dungeon (the creation of the AoTF and the CoA). The statement was declarative, clear, and intended to establish a policy.

The Safehold I nugget ability was plugged in on the fly during the midst of Mythic token difficulty development last year, which has entirely been scrapped, except for this vestigal mention in the Safehold docs. It was done amidst some back and forth over the design of the Mythic tier treasure enhancer, and that design itself has been scrapped.

How long has that phrase even been in the Safehold document? It wasn't present in a copy I have of those docs from February of 2023 and February of 2024. Is, perhaps, the version of Safehold rules posted in post #1 of this thread the first version which the Nugget enhancing abilities of Safeholds are mentioned?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Grizwald wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I do understand the line of thinking that might undercut the Safehold I making the three nuggets slotless. Maybe the Safehold I bonus could be changed to something else. It wouldn't impact anyone since none have been transmuted yet.

Players have been working towards Safehold I for more than a year with the idea in mind that the Nuggets would be slotless. If you're going to hold Jeff to something he said 8 years ago, then why is ok to change something from a year ago?

Context is important.

Jeff made the Nuggest declaration unprompted, and in the wake of probably the most significant token controversy in the history of True Dungeon (the creation of the AoTF and the CoA). The statement was declarative, clear, and intended to establish a policy.

The Safehold I nugget ability was plugged in on the fly during the midst of Mythic token difficulty development last year, which has entirely been scrapped, except for this vestigal mention in the Safehold docs. It was done amidst some back and forth over the design of the Mythic tier treasure enhancer, and that design itself has been scrapped.

How long has that phrase even been in the Safehold document? It wasn't present in a copy I have of those docs from February of 2023 and February of 2024. Is, perhaps, the version of Safehold rules posted in post #1 of this thread the first version which the Nugget enhancing abilities of Safeholds are mentioned?

Unprompted comments on the forum carry more weight than officially published documents. Got it.

First I want to say to all the people looking at the PDF or previous forums...Jeff's Directive is to scrap all previous ideas and come up with something fresh.

All Mythic tokens should be equip-able at all difficulty levels. Keep them all slot-less and let us play with all the other freed up TE slots.

The Mythic Coin or whatever it will be (<cough>... Nagus Pouch) would be super cool if it didn't require a Safehold to equip, just keep it separate from Safehold stuff altogether would be even better for most people's sensibilities, even if that makes it just another Legendary or new type of Grand Legendary rarity, assuming the plan is to still have that count as all TEs except for Ioun Stones? It would be a good stepping stone to.... Safehold I Itself could count as All TEs required for Max Treasure, I'm not opposed to that. lol

Mythic Grimoire - +10 Focus, Free cast two of each spell level available, Use any scroll or wand with healing or spell damage bonus.

Mythic Pineapple - +30 Vengeance (Reflect up to 30 Melee or Ranged Damage from any attack)

Mythic Spearhead of Destiny - +10 Strength, +10 Dex, +10 Missle Damage, +5 Con, Free Movement

Mythic Brooch of Warding - +20 DR All Types except Eldritch, Push, and Puzzle, Immune to Possession, Lost One Effect, Psychic Blast, Retribution, Soul Trap (Whatever that is), Curse, Maze

Mythic Onion - +5 Life Regen / Room, Immune to Natural and Magical Poisons, Diseases, Charms, Gazes, Disintegration, Undead Touch Attack Effects, Petrification

Grizwald wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Grizwald wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I do understand the line of thinking that might undercut the Safehold I making the three nuggets slotless. Maybe the Safehold I bonus could be changed to something else. It wouldn't impact anyone since none have been transmuted yet.

Players have been working towards Safehold I for more than a year with the idea in mind that the Nuggets would be slotless. If you're going to hold Jeff to something he said 8 years ago, then why is ok to change something from a year ago?

Context is important.

Jeff made the Nuggest declaration unprompted, and in the wake of probably the most significant token controversy in the history of True Dungeon (the creation of the AoTF and the CoA). The statement was declarative, clear, and intended to establish a policy.

The Safehold I nugget ability was plugged in on the fly during the midst of Mythic token difficulty development last year, which has entirely been scrapped, except for this vestigal mention in the Safehold docs. It was done amidst some back and forth over the design of the Mythic tier treasure enhancer, and that design itself has been scrapped.

How long has that phrase even been in the Safehold document? It wasn't present in a copy I have of those docs from February of 2023 and February of 2024. Is, perhaps, the version of Safehold rules posted in post #1 of this thread the first version which the Nugget enhancing abilities of Safeholds are mentioned?

Unprompted comments on the forum carry more weight than officially published documents. Got it.

I think things posted by Jeff in the "Token Proclamations" section of the forums carry more weight than future looking token designs found in in frequently revised PDFs.

True Dungeon has an established way to finalize / "officially publish" token designs. It does this by placing those designs in the TokenDB. Safehold I's design, and its proposed Slotless Nugget ability, are not recorded in TokenDB.

Because of this, I think it's best to consider those designs provisional works in progress, which are subject to change. Indeed these designs have changed several times already, and it would be unsurprising if they change more before being finalized and placed in TokenDB.

For what it's worth, I know the Safehold I Slotless Nugget benefits wasn't in the Safehold document as of February of 2024, and that it was added on or before June of 2024.

I strongly agree with David Zych's level recommendations and Ian Lee's comments upon them. They keep things simple, intuitive, and let everyone easily select the play level that gives them the most fun given their desired challenge and token level. In fact whatever Mythic's final form takes, I respectfully urge TD to standardize on David's suggestions for the Epic and lower levels.