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TOPIC: 2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three

2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #13

Lequinian wrote: Have not been following rare discussion - is arrow of Horus meant to be that good compared to every other arrow? Is it a+3 weapon and magical?


Yes, all ammo got an upgrade this year...that should have been the standard from the start. My bad.
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #14

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: No luck swapping +1 heavy axe to a +1 greater scimitar reprint? Feels more on theme.


Sorry...no luck getting good images. Besides, Egyptians did use axes..but I would have preferred Scimitars, too.
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #15

Looking good; I see a bunch of tokens here I would have been super excited to open from a 10-pack in my pre-UR days!

Robe of Aset should have "(torso slot)" to help new players

In 2023 we started putting truedungeon.com/transmuted on all GP tokens. I see the value of helping new players understand what GP is for, but it also makes it harder to tell which GP tokens are specifically named as a recipe ingredient. Would you consider changing the generic GP tokens to a new truedungeon.com/gp URL instead? (leaving the specific ingredient ones as /transmuted)
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #16

Charm of Trollform Damage is almost certainly too high given 3 reasons.

1) it's now an instant action and there isn't a 1 round opportunity cost to drink it.

2) Focus now boosts damage for poly across the board, adding extra damage where there wasn't damage when the original poly potions were created.

3) Finally, in many cases, we would expect Enchanter's whetstone to bump it up by yet another +1 hit and +1 damage (or more given a UR+ baton of focus).

All of the above yields a total damage higher that other class's rare weapons The Troll form should almost certainly be reduced to around 6.5 to 7 average damage to account for the other stacking modifiers.

The damage rankings for Rare weapons and Poly Potions:

Potion Sea Troll (2022): 7.25 average damage
+1 Berserker Carnage Axe wielded by a Barbarian: 7.6 average damage on a
Shark (2011): 8 average damage
Cave bear (2012). 8.33 average damage.
Trollform is currently 9.33 average, and will get the above mentioned bonuses.
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #17

Endgame wrote: Charm of Trollform Damage is almost certainly too high given 3 reasons.

1) it's now an instant action and there isn't a 1 round opportunity cost to drink it.

2) Focus now boosts damage for poly across the board, adding extra damage where there wasn't damage when the original poly potions were created.

3) Finally, in many cases, we would expect Enchanter's whetstone to bump it up by yet another +1 hit and +1 damage (or more given a UR+ baton of focus).

All of the above yields a total damage higher that other class's rare weapons The Troll form should almost certainly be reduced to around 6.5 to 7 average damage to account for the other stacking modifiers.

The damage rankings for Rare weapons and Poly Potions:

Potion Sea Troll (2022): 7.25 average damage
+1 Berserker Carnage Axe wielded by a Barbarian: 7.6 average damage on a
Shark (2011): 8 average damage
Cave bear (2012). 8.33 average damage.
Trollform is currently 9.33 average, and will get the above mentioned bonuses.


The token is poorly worded. The Instant action refers to the transformation -- which is kinda dumb to even worry about. Here is what the Sea Troll potion says now:

Transforms the character into a Sea Troll. The transformation from human(oid) to Sea Troll, or vice versa, is instantaneous. However, since drinking a potion requires a Standard Action, unless the character can drink this potion as a Free Action, the character may not attack the same round this potion is consumed. The effect lasts until the end of the room or until ended by the player–whichever comes first.

I will fix it on the token.
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Last edit: by Jeff Martin.
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #18

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Endgame wrote: Charm of Trollform Damage is almost certainly too high given 3 reasons.

1) it's now an instant action and there isn't a 1 round opportunity cost to drink it.

2) Focus now boosts damage for poly across the board, adding extra damage where there wasn't damage when the original poly potions were created.

3) Finally, in many cases, we would expect Enchanter's whetstone to bump it up by yet another +1 hit and +1 damage (or more given a UR+ baton of focus).

All of the above yields a total damage higher that other class's rare weapons The Troll form should almost certainly be reduced to around 6.5 to 7 average damage to account for the other stacking modifiers.

The damage rankings for Rare weapons and Poly Potions:

Potion Sea Troll (2022): 7.25 average damage
+1 Berserker Carnage Axe wielded by a Barbarian: 7.6 average damage on a
Shark (2011): 8 average damage
Cave bear (2012). 8.33 average damage.
Trollform is currently 9.33 average, and will get the above mentioned bonuses.

I don't agree that any poly forms will use the Whetstone. The attack wheel is based on the creature the druid turns in to, not a weapon. It even uses the newly created Trinket slot/keyword (actually, that's a suggestion-make Trinket a keyword, not a slot)
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #19

NightGod wrote: I don't agree that any poly forms will use the Whetstone. The attack wheel is based on the creature the druid turns in to, not a weapon. It even uses the newly created Trinket slot/keyword (actually, that's a suggestion-make Trinket a keyword, not a slot)

The poly forms don't actually matter for using the whetstone.

Let's presume we have a Druid holding a rare baton of focus in melee main hand and a brawler's horn in the melee offhand, and has an Enchanter's whetstone equipped. This druid is equipping no other equipment but the trollform trinket.

The druid has 11 base str, so they start with +0 melee hit and +0 melee damage. They also start with +0 poly hit, and +0 poly damage.

The Baton of focus does not add to melee hit. However, it's focus ability adds 1 to the poly damage. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +0/+0. Poly: +0/+1.

The Brawler's horn adds +2 melee hit. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +2/+0. Poly: +2/+1.

Both weapons are rare, so the Enchanter's whetstone is now active. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +3/+1. Poly: +3/+2.

The Druid now switches to Troll Form via the trinket. They are swinging with a 9.3 average damage weapon with a modified +3 hit / +2 damage from the above equipment. In effect, the druid is overriding the damage wheel of the Baton of Focus with a 9.33 average damage wheel, while still benefiting from all the other buffs. This is probably too high.
Last edit: by Endgame.
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #20

I hope the ability to use multiple of the same Trinket in a room is reversed, because that does sound like it duplicates the ability of the Legendary token but slotless instead of using the neck slot.

I agree that a pile of Polymorph potions could do something similar, but each of them takes a standard action to drink (unless you've got magical assistance to instantly drink), plus of course they are consumable. If you use a pile of polymorph potions each Dungeon to switch in and out of polymorph to cast spells (for instance), it is costing you numerous consumables every Dungeon. If you do that with a pile of Trinkets, there is no such cost because they are no longer consumable.

I have two recommendations:

1) Only allow one trinket token to be used per room, unless you have another token (like Iktomi's) allowing multiple uses.

2) Boost Iktomi so that the Druid Class Legendary is clearly better than a Rare Trinket. It was already fairly well recognized as very underpowered, trinkets make it even more underpowered. I would recommend allowing Iktomi to use multiple polymorph forms per room (as it was originally designed), and boost the Elemental forms. Examples of Elemental enhancements would be to increase damage reduction to 15-20, and to give each elemental form an attack bonus, like air elemental could fly, Earth Elemental could do +15 damage, Fire Elemental could do +10 Fire Damage, etc).
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #21

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Mike Steele wrote: I hope the ability to use multiple of the same Trinket in a room is reversed, because that does sound like it duplicates the ability of the Legendary token but slotless instead of using the neck slot.

I agree that a pile of Polymorph potions could do something similar, but each of them takes a standard action to drink (unless you've got magical assistance to instantly drink), plus of course they are consumable. If you use a pile of polymorph potions each Dungeon to switch in and out of polymorph to cast spells (for instance), it is costing you numerous consumables every Dungeon. If you do that with a pile of Trinkets, there is no such cost because they are no longer consumable.

I have two recommendations:

1) Only allow one trinket token to be used per room, unless you have another token (like Iktomi's) allowing multiple uses.

2) Boost Iktomi so that the Druid Class Legendary is clearly better than a Rare Trinket. It was already fairly well recognized as very underpowered, trinkets make it even more underpowered. I would recommend allowing Iktomi to use multiple polymorph forms per room (as it was originally designed), and boost the Elemental forms. Examples of Elemental enhancements would be to increase damage reduction to 15-20, and to give each elemental form an attack bonus, like air elemental could fly, Earth Elemental could do +15 damage, Fire Elemental could do +10 Fire Damage, etc).

With the clarification that you still need a standard action to activate a trinket, this concern seems a bit moot
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #22

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I hope the ability to use multiple of the same Trinket in a room is reversed, because that does sound like it duplicates the ability of the Legendary token but slotless instead of using the neck slot.

I agree that a pile of Polymorph potions could do something similar, but each of them takes a standard action to drink (unless you've got magical assistance to instantly drink), plus of course they are consumable. If you use a pile of polymorph potions each Dungeon to switch in and out of polymorph to cast spells (for instance), it is costing you numerous consumables every Dungeon. If you do that with a pile of Trinkets, there is no such cost because they are no longer consumable.

I have two recommendations:

1) Only allow one trinket token to be used per room, unless you have another token (like Iktomi's) allowing multiple uses.

2) Boost Iktomi so that the Druid Class Legendary is clearly better than a Rare Trinket. It was already fairly well recognized as very underpowered, trinkets make it even more underpowered. I would recommend allowing Iktomi to use multiple polymorph forms per room (as it was originally designed), and boost the Elemental forms. Examples of Elemental enhancements would be to increase damage reduction to 15-20, and to give each elemental form an attack bonus, like air elemental could fly, Earth Elemental could do +15 damage, Fire Elemental could do +10 Fire Damage, etc).

With the clarification that you still need a standard action to activate a trinket, this concern seems a bit moot


Where was that clarified? Post 17 is clarifying that drinking a potion takes a standard action, but maybe you're referring to something else.
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #23

+1 Great Axe: probably too late for a change like this, but "Fan axe" or "Epsilon Axe" could be more on theme (and the fan axe looks pretty cool). Also, any reason this one isn't getting the +2 damage in desert like the seth weapons?

+1 Oasis Bow: also maybe reasonable to have the +2 damage in desert

Boots of Tremor Sense: I think this does not grant see invisibility, but could foresee it being interpreted differently by some. I don't see a better way to word it if the intent is to allow melee swings at invisible creatures and nothing more though.

Mystic staff of the serpent: has the same damage wheel as 2023's mystic staff of the sun but is listed as a +1 whereas the previous example is not +1. I suspect that may be intentional to further improve to hit for casters, just pointing it out for review.
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2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 weeks ago #24

Jeff Martin wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: No luck swapping +1 heavy axe to a +1 greater scimitar reprint? Feels more on theme.




Sorry...no luck getting good images. Besides, Egyptians did use axes..but I would have preferred Scimitars, too.


Thanks for trying! And responding!
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