TOPIC: What should a Relic and Legendary cost in 2024?

I need some quick input.

It seems like the fairest way to assign the recipe list to 2024 Relics and Legendaries would be to assign an actual dollar amount to each to express the total worth of the tokens needed to make that Relic or Legendary. For instance, let's say we assign a Relic a general value of $200 and a Legendary $500. We can use those dollar amounts (and the average value of Trade tokens across all 2023 auctions) to arrive at a fair recipe.

I realize that not Relics and Legendaries are equal in value within their token classifications. For example, the Charm of Uber-Avarice will be the most expense token of its class. However, we can make adjustments (up or down) if we feel the power level is not within the general mode of the class.

So...for 2024...what do you think the general cost of a Relic and Legendary should be given the past few years as a road map.

Thanks for the quick help. I need this info for a upcoming cool info dump...soon.

I would aim for $300 for Relics and $1000 for Legendaries.

Mike Steele wrote: I would aim for $300 for Relics and $1000 for Legendaries.

In general I agree with this as the baseline. A “awesome with all classes” legendary or relic like relic havoc or Luna’s should be a fair amount higher. A very situational relic like boots of protection or legendary like TaMors could be much lower

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I would aim for $300 for Relics and $1000 for Legendaries.

In general I agree with this as the baseline. A “awesome with all classes” legendary or relic like relic havoc or Luna’s should be a fair amount higher. A very situational relic like boots of protection or legendary like TaMors could be much lower

Agreed.

Mike Steele wrote: I would aim for $300 for Relics and $1000 for Legendaries.

These are the prices a Relic and Legendary typically sell for on the secondary market NOW, it's not the cost of what it would take to make the item by buying all of the components.

Historically, if you wanted to craft a Relic by purchasing it's components you'd be around $450 and for a Legendary about $1,500.

The sum of the components has always been higher than what the crafted Tokens sell for on the secondary market.

All that being said I think the current system of one UR + Trade Goods and GP for a Relic, and one Relic + two UR's + Trade Goods and GP/Wish Ring for a Legendary is ok, however if TD keeps loading the treasure boxes with them then it's not going to matter much what price they shoot for in Trade Goods because people will just buy them from other people instead of crafting them.

You have to define what you mean by value.

There is no one value for anything. Marc can give you averages of auction prices for components and you could do a comparison year over year on relics and legendaries using today's auction prices. But, that isn't remotely what I think of when I think of the cost of a relic/legendary.

Instead of thinking in terms of dollars, where there are all sorts of variables, I would look at what $8k bundles generate since those are the "in" way for people who are into relics/legendaries to get tokens. Certainly changed over time how much of a bundle was consumed by recipes, but, at a minimum, can get an idea of what sort of proportions of TGs should go into a realistic combination of what someone getting an $8k bundle would transmute.

Personally, I hate the model of URs going into legendaries, but my main problems with recipes is that they are too cookiecutter and out of line with what actually gets generated. That may sound contradictory, but I'd like to see one transmute path use different TG proportions but see the total universe of a year's worth of transmutes to align to 8k generation (ignoring that 8k's don't generate enough gold to make multiple legendaries and never to my knowledge have).

Greater Charm Bracelet Example:

Utaku currently has one listed for $350 on his website. Trent's are about $375. Average sell price on eBay for the last four Greater Charm Bracelets is $225, $225, $250, $228.50 for an average price of $232.

However if you take the costs of all of the components from Utaku's last auction that just ended and assuming $30 for Fleece you would need exactly $585.25 to craft a Greater Charm Bracelet.

So you can try and set the price at $500 (or whatever amount you want) in Trade Goods and components but that doesn't mean that's what they are going to be worth.

Right now a Great Charm Bracelet is only worth $232.

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I would aim for $300 for Relics and $1000 for Legendaries.

These are the prices a Relic and Legendary typically sell for on the secondary market NOW, it's not the cost of what it would take to make the item by buying all of the components.

Historically, if you wanted to craft a Relic by purchasing it's components you'd be around $450 and for a Legendary about $1,500.

The sum of the components has always been higher than what the crafted Tokens sell for on the secondary market.

All that being said I think the current system of one UR + Trade Goods and GP for a Relic, and one Relic + two UR's + Trade Goods and GP/Wish Ring for a Legendary is ok, however if TD keeps loading the treasure boxes with them then it's not going to matter much what price they shoot for in Trade Goods because people will just buy them from other people instead of crafting them.

Rob, thanks for the added info. I do recall that ingredient costs exceed the secondary price in most cases, which makes sense given that many people are doing the transmuting largely with excess tokens from token purchases. I almost never transmute Relics and Legendary tokens (outside of the multi-year UR transmutes), so wasn't as current on transmute costs.

Given that, I do recommend that you stay pretty consistent, which looks like aiming for around $450-$500 in ingredients for Relics and closer to $1,500 for Legendaries. I do also agree that if it is a particularly awesome Relic/Legendary the value of ingredients might be higher.

To your other point, from my group's experience it seems like TD is already cutting back on the Relics/Legendary in treasure boxes. The last couple of conventions (including Skull Con), the only Relic my group got was the Turkey Leg, which isn't really valued at the Relic level. Even URs seem to have gone from around 1 per 100 to maybe 1 per 300. Maybe our numbers are out of synch with the averages though.

Ian Lee wrote: You have to define what you mean by value.

There is no one value for anything. Marc can give you averages of auction prices for components and you could do a comparison year over year on relics and legendaries using today's auction prices. But, that isn't remotely what I think of when I think of the cost of a relic/legendary.

Instead of thinking in terms of dollars, where there are all sorts of variables, I would look at what $8k bundles generate since those are the "in" way for people who are into relics/legendaries to get tokens. Certainly changed over time how much of a bundle was consumed by recipes, but, at a minimum, can get an idea of what sort of proportions of TGs should go into a realistic combination of what someone getting an $8k bundle would transmute.

Personally, I hate the model of URs going into legendaries, but my main problems with recipes is that they are too cookiecutter and out of line with what actually gets generated. That may sound contradictory, but I'd like to see one transmute path use different TG proportions but see the total universe of a year's worth of transmutes to align to 8k generation (ignoring that 8k's don't generate enough gold to make multiple legendaries and never to my knowledge have).

Thanks. This is good food for thought, but would it not then be a good idea to also take into consideration the number of TGs an average buyer receives in random treasure throughout the year? Someone could buy only a $250 UR pack in 2024 -- but acquire through many TD and VTS runs 100s of draws of Treasure Tokens to transmute into TGs.

Ian Lee wrote: You have to define what you mean by value.

There is no one value for anything. Marc can give you averages of auction prices for components and you could do a comparison year over year on relics and legendaries using today's auction prices. But, that isn't remotely what I think of when I think of the cost of a relic/legendary.

Instead of thinking in terms of dollars, where there are all sorts of variables, I would look at what $8k bundles generate since those are the "in" way for people who are into relics/legendaries to get tokens. Certainly changed over time how much of a bundle was consumed by recipes, but, at a minimum, can get an idea of what sort of proportions of TGs should go into a realistic combination of what someone getting an $8k bundle would transmute.

Personally, I hate the model of URs going into legendaries, but my main problems with recipes is that they are too cookiecutter and out of line with what actually gets generated. That may sound contradictory, but I'd like to see one transmute path use different TG proportions but see the total universe of a year's worth of transmutes to align to 8k generation (ignoring that 8k's don't generate enough gold to make multiple legendaries and never to my knowledge have).

But how do you know what the mix will be of a total universe of a years worth of transmutes? What's the mix of Relics vs. Legendaries vs Treasure Maps, etc that will get made? No one knows. And people hold Tokens/Trade Goods from one year to the next so I don't see how TD could set recipes this way. Plus people get GP and TG from the treasure boxes.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: You have to define what you mean by value.

There is no one value for anything. Marc can give you averages of auction prices for components and you could do a comparison year over year on relics and legendaries using today's auction prices. But, that isn't remotely what I think of when I think of the cost of a relic/legendary.

Instead of thinking in terms of dollars, where there are all sorts of variables, I would look at what $8k bundles generate since those are the "in" way for people who are into relics/legendaries to get tokens. Certainly changed over time how much of a bundle was consumed by recipes, but, at a minimum, can get an idea of what sort of proportions of TGs should go into a realistic combination of what someone getting an $8k bundle would transmute.

Personally, I hate the model of URs going into legendaries, but my main problems with recipes is that they are too cookiecutter and out of line with what actually gets generated. That may sound contradictory, but I'd like to see one transmute path use different TG proportions but see the total universe of a year's worth of transmutes to align to 8k generation (ignoring that 8k's don't generate enough gold to make multiple legendaries and never to my knowledge have).

Thanks. This is good food for thought, but would it not then be a good idea to also take into consideration the number of TGs an average buyer receives in random treasure throughout the year? Someone could buy only a $250 UR pack in 2024 -- but acquire through many TD and VTS runs 100s of draws of Treasure Tokens to transmute into TGs.

Jeff, that's a great point, and that's why I'd recommend cutting way back on Dwarven Steel and Minotaur Hide in recipes. Many people are getting tons of the other trade goods from treasure boxes, but almost none of those two (since there are no longer common tokens in treasure boxes), so they are often in very short supply.

Why do people hold TGs from one year to another?

Either because they have an excess due to recipes not requiring what they generate or because they don't care to make some year's transmute. However, if the latter is the case, then either the transmute isn't that good or someone else will want to make it - average number of made. If the latter here, then you sell TGs to those people. If the former, then that's a development problem.

Even given how small the community is and how few relics/legendaries actually need to be made, there are still so many elements to behavior that have to make some general assumptions. A general assumption I would make (then design/develop to it) is that the same number of relics/legendaries will be made each year.

As for treasure affecting the TG balance, while that's rather important for DS/MH, making some complicated adjustments for other stuff. I suppose you could use an uplift factor of some percentage of stuff. Obviously, Golden Fleece aren't directly buyable, so would have to do some calculations for that, anyway. I'm just not seeing someone doing a lot of runs with a small buy. May look like such people exist to TDA, but I don't buy direct anymore and I put way too much money into tokens every year. Should be a rather high correlation to how many tickets buy and token amount bought. Note, not how many runs, as someone could do one run but buy 10 tickets.

Side stuff does throw off any sort of calculations. Mystic Orb recipe seemed less planned than Stalker recipes, for instance. As fluffy as trying to align generation to cost may be, how much components cost just doesn't relate in a usable way to transmute pricing.