TOPIC: Mage Staff discussion/clarification

Ok so the newest update from Jeff has clarified that the Mage/Mystic Staves use INT or WIS INSTEAD of DEX to determine their + to hit and +ranged damage to determine their damage. This makes them EXTREMELY odd from a design standpoint.

Given less than 5 tokens in the game increase INT or WIS both cap out between 20 and 23 that means these staves are starting with a core +5 or 6 to hit, vs the average +5 to 8 to hit gained from DEX currently.

currently INT does nothing in game other than increase to hit for this weapon, meaning any INT boosting tokens are useless if you are not using one of these staves. which average 10 to 25 damage lower than using a level 0 spell.

On Nightmare, assuming an AC of 20-25 a Nightmare geared Wizard is likely to be sliding at +8-10 with the change to INT instead of DEX, possibly significantly lower. I think my current Wizard Nightmare would be at +7 to hit on Nightmare and Epic.


Even assuming I get enough INT bonus to actually score a hit with the weapon I lose all of my +spell damage bonus resulting in a 50% loss of damage using the staff vs a level 0 spell (spell damage bonus is +42 with bardsong, ranged bonus is +22 with bardsong.)


I was under the assumption the INT bonus to hit was to help supplement the lack of hit bonus Wizards have as a class, replacing DEX instead of supplementing it means we need a large set of INT bonuses for it to ever be a choice over a crossbow or sling and we're still getting EXTREMELY low damage out of it.



Suggestion for the Mage/Mystic staves to function as a valid ranged weapon option for Wizards/Druids/Clerics/Bards who focus on spellcasting.

#1 - Mage/Mystic Staves use SpellDamage instead of Ranged Damage for it's damage bonus. Staves have a 1/2/3/4 damage wheel to limit their power vs actual spells.

#2 - Mage/Mystic Staves use INT or WIS as to hit modifiers, in addition to any +Ranged to hit bonuses to calculate hits.

#3 - INT is updated to add +1 to Spell hit and +1 to Spell damage per 2 INT WIS is updated to add +1 to Healing per 2 WIS (in addition to +will save)

Starting with 2023 tokens new tokens can print with a mix of +INT/WIS and +spelldamage/healing bonuses using similar designs as +STR and +DEX currently do as +INT now adds +to hit and +to damage for spells and +WIS now adds +healing and +will save.

First change suggested for 2023 would be to change the bead of focus to give +4 INT +4 WIS and start having of focus items give +INT +WIS instead of the spelldamage/healing bonuses

I really like this idea and hope there is enough time for this ti get noticed before the final final versions go out or at least leave the staff token ambiguous to allow for clarification and discussion to continue.

Minor factual correction:

Hat of intellect gives +4 int, and starhide / sunhide give +3 and 5.

So human Wizard can get up to 28 Int.

Druids can get up to 27 wis with charm of enlightenment.

Druid has base wisdom 19, cleric 17.

So if things Star counting bonuses at an attribute score of 10, then cure minor becomes a 5 point heal for Druids and 4 for clerics.

Part of the problem with making WIS do anything are the Druid characters stats which are way higher than everyone else’s, but is mitigated by having 19 wis that basically does nothing.

Making wis do something makes Druids as strong as a paladin and as dexterous as a monk and the most wise.

I kind of like your proposal, but I think it would need to be coupled with a character card redesign that brought the relevant stats of Druid in line with other casters.

Also your proposal removes polymorph damage from focus. Maybe WIS boosts healing and polymorphism damage.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Druid has base wisdom 19, cleric 17.

So if things Star counting bonuses at an attribute score of 10, then cure minor becomes a 5 point heal for Druids and 4 for clerics.

Part of the problem with making WIS do anything are the Druid characters stats which are way higher than everyone else’s, but is mitigated by having 19 wis that basically does nothing.

Making wis do something makes Druids as strong as a paladin and as dexterous as a monk and the most wise.

I kind of like your proposal, but I think it would need to be coupled with a character card redesign that brought the relevant stats of Druid in line with other casters.

Also your proposal removes polymorph damage from focus. Maybe WIS boosts healing and polymorphism damage.

Maybe INT boosts poly to hit bonus and WIS boosts poly damage bonus.

So it appears the Staves are usable both in Melee as blunt weapons and at range as not spell ranged attacks?!

So you use INT or WIS instead of STR for your to hit bonus at Melee and instead of DEX for your to hit bonus at Range.

But you still use STR or DEX for the damage bonus at melee or ranged? Seems like INT/WIS should be used to calculate your +to hit and +damage for both melee and range for these weapons.

I still dislike the obviously magical spell like effect at ranged not benefiting from +spelldamage bonuses, that seems EXTREMELY counterintuitive to me. As does Dexterity not benefiting to hit for a ranged attack BUT adding to the damage of the magical attack, or Strength not benefiting the to hit for a melee attack BUT adding to the damage of the staff hit.

I would prefer if these weapons counted as a normal staff in melee (STR bonus to hit and damage) but counted as spells at range (INT or WIS for to hit bonus, spell damage for damage)

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Ok so the newest update from Jeff has clarified that the Mage/Mystic Staves use INT or WIS INSTEAD of DEX to determine their + to hit and +ranged damage to determine their damage. This makes them EXTREMELY odd from a design standpoint.

Given less than 5 tokens in the game increase INT or WIS both cap out between 20 and 23 that means these staves are starting with a core +5 or 6 to hit, vs the average +5 to 8 to hit gained from DEX currently.

currently INT does nothing in game other than increase to hit for this weapon, meaning any INT boosting tokens are useless if you are not using one of these staves. which average 10 to 25 damage lower than using a level 0 spell.

On Nightmare, assuming an AC of 20-25 a Nightmare geared Wizard is likely to be sliding at +8-10 with the change to INT instead of DEX, possibly significantly lower. I think my current Wizard Nightmare would be at +7 to hit on Nightmare and Epic.


Even assuming I get enough INT bonus to actually score a hit with the weapon I lose all of my +spell damage bonus resulting in a 50% loss of damage using the staff vs a level 0 spell (spell damage bonus is +42 with bardsong, ranged bonus is +22 with bardsong.)


I was under the assumption the INT bonus to hit was to help supplement the lack of hit bonus Wizards have as a class, replacing DEX instead of supplementing it means we need a large set of INT bonuses for it to ever be a choice over a crossbow or sling and we're still getting EXTREMELY low damage out of it.



Suggestion for the Mage/Mystic staves to function as a valid ranged weapon option for Wizards/Druids/Clerics/Bards who focus on spellcasting.

#1 - Mage/Mystic Staves use SpellDamage instead of Ranged Damage for it's damage bonus. Staves have a 1/2/3/4 damage wheel to limit their power vs actual spells.

#2 - Mage/Mystic Staves use INT or WIS as to hit modifiers, in addition to any +Ranged to hit bonuses to calculate hits.

#3 - INT is updated to add +1 to Spell hit and +1 to Spell damage per 2 INT WIS is updated to add +1 to Healing per 2 WIS (in addition to +will save)

Starting with 2023 tokens new tokens can print with a mix of +INT/WIS and +spelldamage/healing bonuses using similar designs as +STR and +DEX currently do as +INT now adds +to hit and +to damage for spells and +WIS now adds +healing and +will save.

First change suggested for 2023 would be to change the bead of focus to give +4 INT +4 WIS and start having of focus items give +INT +WIS instead of the spelldamage/healing bonuses

If we go down that type of road, I'd hope WIS would give a polymorph bonus in addition to a healing bonus.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Ok so the newest update from Jeff has clarified that the Mage/Mystic Staves use INT or WIS INSTEAD of DEX to determine their + to hit and +ranged damage to determine their damage. This makes them EXTREMELY odd from a design standpoint.

Given less than 5 tokens in the game increase INT or WIS both cap out between 20 and 23 that means these staves are starting with a core +5 or 6 to hit, vs the average +5 to 8 to hit gained from DEX currently.

currently INT does nothing in game other than increase to hit for this weapon, meaning any INT boosting tokens are useless if you are not using one of these staves. which average 10 to 25 damage lower than using a level 0 spell.

On Nightmare, assuming an AC of 20-25 a Nightmare geared Wizard is likely to be sliding at +8-10 with the change to INT instead of DEX, possibly significantly lower. I think my current Wizard Nightmare would be at +7 to hit on Nightmare and Epic.


Even assuming I get enough INT bonus to actually score a hit with the weapon I lose all of my +spell damage bonus resulting in a 50% loss of damage using the staff vs a level 0 spell (spell damage bonus is +42 with bardsong, ranged bonus is +22 with bardsong.)


I was under the assumption the INT bonus to hit was to help supplement the lack of hit bonus Wizards have as a class, replacing DEX instead of supplementing it means we need a large set of INT bonuses for it to ever be a choice over a crossbow or sling and we're still getting EXTREMELY low damage out of it.



Suggestion for the Mage/Mystic staves to function as a valid ranged weapon option for Wizards/Druids/Clerics/Bards who focus on spellcasting.

#1 - Mage/Mystic Staves use SpellDamage instead of Ranged Damage for it's damage bonus. Staves have a 1/2/3/4 damage wheel to limit their power vs actual spells.

#2 - Mage/Mystic Staves use INT or WIS as to hit modifiers, in addition to any +Ranged to hit bonuses to calculate hits.

#3 - INT is updated to add +1 to Spell hit and +1 to Spell damage per 2 INT WIS is updated to add +1 to Healing per 2 WIS (in addition to +will save)

Starting with 2023 tokens new tokens can print with a mix of +INT/WIS and +spelldamage/healing bonuses using similar designs as +STR and +DEX currently do as +INT now adds +to hit and +to damage for spells and +WIS now adds +healing and +will save.

First change suggested for 2023 would be to change the bead of focus to give +4 INT +4 WIS and start having of focus items give +INT +WIS instead of the spelldamage/healing bonuses

If we go down that type of road, I'd hope WIS would give a polymorph bonus in addition to a healing bonus.

I would support this solution for Int/Wis (and poly).

Reprint Staff of Power. Add a cool new UR Wand.

Personally, I wouldn't want any wand to be UR, unless it's not consumed.

Dougout wrote: Personally, I wouldn't want any wand to be UR, unless it's not consumed.

I hope that's what he was suggesting.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dougout wrote: Personally, I wouldn't want any wand to be UR, unless it's not consumed.

I hope that's what he was suggesting.

Yeah - there were some suggestions for UR wand things in the UR ideas thread - all nonconsumable.