TOPIC: Important Notes

I may have missed it. Has someone actually run the numbers to see what kind of build is possible with the staff if did use Dex+Int to-hit and allowed full spell damage bonus? My gut instinct is that you can potentially build a better ranged combatant than any other class at that point. And then still be able to dish out a huge amount of spell damage as well. That seems like too much power in the staff. I could see giving full spell damage if it is only Int to-hit, as at that point it should hit less often than a missile-focused ranged class. I can also see potentially giving Int+Dex to-hit, but only if the damage bonus is not full spell damage.

Fiddy wrote: I may have missed it. Has someone actually run the numbers to see what kind of build is possible with the staff if did use Dex+Int to-hit and allowed full spell damage bonus? My gut instinct is that you can potentially build a better ranged combatant than any other class at that point. And then still be able to dish out a huge amount of spell damage as well. That seems like too much power in the staff. I could see giving full spell damage if it is only Int to-hit, as at that point it should hit less often than a missile-focused ranged class. I can also see potentially giving Int+Dex to-hit, but only if the damage bonus is not full spell damage.

If you ignore skill tests, 0 level spells do 3pts + spell bonus. If staff averages 2.5 + spell bonus, what's the point in a 0 level spell? That it always hits?

I swapped in stats of UR staff with DEX + INT to hit and spell bonus one of the wiz builds I ran on 4c, and it would be +17 to hit and +27 damage. I don't know. Didn't build heavily to ranged to hit, so that could be higher. I wouldn't run the staff as a weapon unless it got around things like silenced because I don't run out of spells and find it more interesting if I did, but it would be essentially infinite 0 level spells.

Last night, I built a missile first elf. Currently, +22/+29 with Thor's and +30 spell damage without having made a significant effort and with running Charming Ring over Relsa's. INT bonus equals Thor's, so to hit doesn't change. Damage goes up by one point. This is a built that is trying hard to missile, with such plays as Bracers of Supreme Archery.

Missile Elf Build

I can only speak as a nightmare/epic equipped wizard. I play with multiple variations of my build, but all of them have at least a ranged to hit bonus of +14. That way my slide spells only miss on a natural one. Because ranged damage counts as bonus spell damage, I have incentive to increase that as well. Therefore, my ranged damage is currently +23. I see no reason why I would switch out Thor's Hammer for any variation of the mage staff as proposed. The Hammer even crits on a 19-20, in which case I'm doing more damage than most spells.

I am sorry that I have been in too big a rush to explain things properly. My apologies.

One of the design challenges we face every year is making a set of tokens that is fun for both new, middle-level and hard core token collectors. The Staffs should not appeal to the token vets out there, as they are designed to give a cool Ranged attacks for newer players who have run out of spells -- or did not draw a Ranged weapon in their free pack (or limited number of purchased packs).

If we wanted to do a "must slide to hit" option for token vets, then we'd have to do something vastly different because of tokens like Thor's hammer. Maybe it could be a Ring that could be used once per game that would have a good damage wheel. We can tackle that next year.

I think we have done a good job of making a token collection that works for newbies as well as vets. Thanks for the help!

Jeff Martin wrote: I am sorry that I have been in too big a rush to explain things properly. My apologies.

One of the design challenges we face every year is making a set of tokens that is fun for both new, middle-level and hard core token collectors. The Staffs should not appeal to the token vets out there, as they are designed to give a cool Ranged attacks for newer players who have run out of spells -- or did not draw a Ranged weapon in their free pack (or limited number of purchased packs).

If we wanted to do a "must slide to hit" option for token vets, then we'd have to do something vastly different because of tokens like Thor's hammer. Maybe it could be a Ring that could be used once per game that would have a good damage wheel. We can tackle that next year.

I think we have done a good job of making a token collection that works for newbies as well as vets. Thanks for the help!

Glad to hear it - I think the token as is would be a nice option for level 4 / starting wizards - when I started I always bought a bunch of common scroll burning hands from gamingetc for $1 each because it was quite easy back then for me to run out of spells, this would have been a great option.

Thanks Jeff. The staves make total sense for a newbie player and should be fun if they manage to pull one.

Jeff Martin wrote: I am sorry that I have been in too big a rush to explain things properly. My apologies.

One of the design challenges we face every year is making a set of tokens that is fun for both new, middle-level and hard core token collectors. The Staffs should not appeal to the token vets out there, as they are designed to give a cool Ranged attacks for newer players who have run out of spells -- or did not draw a Ranged weapon in their free pack (or limited number of purchased packs).

If we wanted to do a "must slide to hit" option for token vets, then we'd have to do something vastly different because of tokens like Thor's hammer. Maybe it could be a Ring that could be used once per game that would have a good damage wheel. We can tackle that next year.

I think we have done a good job of making a token collection that works for newbies as well as vets. Thanks for the help!

Jeff, that makes a lot of sense. Given that though, would it make more sense to limit those for now at the C/U/R rarities where new players are more likely to get them, and change the UR one to a straight +2 Staff of Power reprint? I suspect most people buying it will be doing so for the free spell power and not the ranged attack power, and so doing a reprint would prevent the possibility of Wizards doubling up on the free spells with both the +2 Staff of Power and the Mage Staff of Power. Plus, a straight reprint of it is way overdue.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I am sorry that I have been in too big a rush to explain things properly. My apologies.

One of the design challenges we face every year is making a set of tokens that is fun for both new, middle-level and hard core token collectors. The Staffs should not appeal to the token vets out there, as they are designed to give a cool Ranged attacks for newer players who have run out of spells -- or did not draw a Ranged weapon in their free pack (or limited number of purchased packs).

If we wanted to do a "must slide to hit" option for token vets, then we'd have to do something vastly different because of tokens like Thor's hammer. Maybe it could be a Ring that could be used once per game that would have a good damage wheel. We can tackle that next year.

I think we have done a good job of making a token collection that works for newbies as well as vets. Thanks for the help!

Glad to hear it - I think the token as is would be a nice option for level 4 / starting wizards - when I started I always bought a bunch of common scroll burning hands from gamingetc for $1 each because it was quite easy back then for me to run out of spells, this would have been a great option.

LOL same, I still have bags of Burning Hands and Shocking Grasp scrolls. Made me a little sad to see Mage's Spectacles changed.

Jeff Martin wrote: I am sorry that I have been in too big a rush to explain things properly. My apologies.

One of the design challenges we face every year is making a set of tokens that is fun for both new, middle-level and hard core token collectors. The Staffs should not appeal to the token vets out there, as they are designed to give a cool Ranged attacks for newer players who have run out of spells -- or did not draw a Ranged weapon in their free pack (or limited number of purchased packs).

If we wanted to do a "must slide to hit" option for token vets, then we'd have to do something vastly different because of tokens like Thor's hammer. Maybe it could be a Ring that could be used once per game that would have a good damage wheel. We can tackle that next year.

I think we have done a good job of making a token collection that works for newbies as well as vets. Thanks for the help!

Makes sense to me.

bpsymington wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I am sorry that I have been in too big a rush to explain things properly. My apologies.

One of the design challenges we face every year is making a set of tokens that is fun for both new, middle-level and hard core token collectors. The Staffs should not appeal to the token vets out there, as they are designed to give a cool Ranged attacks for newer players who have run out of spells -- or did not draw a Ranged weapon in their free pack (or limited number of purchased packs).

If we wanted to do a "must slide to hit" option for token vets, then we'd have to do something vastly different because of tokens like Thor's hammer. Maybe it could be a Ring that could be used once per game that would have a good damage wheel. We can tackle that next year.

I think we have done a good job of making a token collection that works for newbies as well as vets. Thanks for the help!

Makes sense to me.

Explanation makes sense. Given the reasoning it might be better to drop the UR staff and just straight reprint the +2 Staff of Power instead.

Tho I guess there's nothing wrong with making an UR mage staff that's a functional reprint of the +2 Staff of Power. But at the minimum could you add the +2 back on to it, there doesn't seem a reason to penalize the weapon's to hit and damage bonus for something aimed at mid level players. Especially given using only INT bonus for to hit means the staff will be lower on to hit than a standard +2 ranged weapon due to the lack of INT bonus items

I think it is likely time to give the Druid legendary some love on Token DB, or to acknowledge it is what it is and start thinking of a new best in slot item for caster/healer druids in the neck slot. It really is the odd item out of the newer legendary items. As a 2019 token I feel like the window to address it is closing and a new token is likely the best course forward.

OrionW wrote: I think it is likely time to give the Druid legendary some love on Token DB, or to acknowledge it is what it is and start thinking of a new best in slot item for caster/healer druids in the neck slot. It really is the odd item out of the newer legendary items. As a 2019 token I feel like the window to address it is closing and a new token is likely the best course forward.

I suspect that if Jeff does adjust the Druid Legendary, it will likely still be focused on polymorph. So if you're hoping to see spell damage/healing boosts, I'd wager you're likely safe to pass on it.

Maybe 2023 would make sense to have a more generic Focus neck item with transmute path +3->+5->+7?