Daniel White wrote:
Matthew Hayward wrote:
Daniel White wrote:
Matthew Hayward wrote:
Daniel White wrote: Free action attacks are huge. You get your spell damage bonus twice. The tome gives you the extra spells to enable that. A second set of free action spells effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide.
This seems like overkill for a single item.
Some wizard spells, including the high damage ones, do involve a slide.
Normal dungeons often have more than 8 combat rounds.
I don't think 8 free action attacks on a single item is justifiable.
That's fine.
I'm just pointing out that whether 8 free action spells "effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide" is very debatable.
Sure. We don't even need to go down that road. The Relic power is already way out of line with other class tokens. From your own thread, (
www.truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=5&id=251375&start=0
), on your BiS wizard, MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55).
Even if we were just talking about four free casts of magic missile, the damage value of the relic is at least 220(!) points. Not even getting into the fact higher level spells are available.
I think you're oversimplifying several things in your analysis and arriving at a wrong conclusion that the Wizard Legendary "is way out of line with other class tokens."
There are two large flaws I see above:
1. MeC is only usable once per round. if you are using MeC on the 4 spells you get from the Wizard Relic, you are not using it on the 4 spells you would have otherwise used it on that you cast as a Standard action.
2. To gain the benefits of the Relic neck, you give up Medallion of Mystic Mouth, which is cranking out 10-12 damage every round - not just for 4 rounds.
Below is a detailed analysis under reasonable assumptions for the Barbarian Relic.
TL;DR: Barbarian, Monk Relics gross more damage than the Wizard relic.
Summary:
Wizard Relic in a BiS build nets ~205 damage over the course of a dungeon, but grosses ~85-105 after considering what the Wizard gives up in the neck slot.
The Barbarian Relic nets ~130 damage over the course of a dungeon, but grosses around ~115 after considering what the Barbarian gives up in the neck slot.
Analysis:
Over the course of the entire dungeon, Wizard relic gives 4 extra spells as a free action:
A. One 3 point (+3 with skill test)
B. One 8 point (+3 with skill test)
C. One 18 point requiring a slide - assume you hit 90% of the time.
D. One 20 point
Assume for spells A and B, you don't double them with MeC, because you double the other spell you cast as a standard action instead.
Assume for spell C and D, you double them with MeC, but at the cost of not doubling the other spell you cast that turn. We take that other spell to be an 8 point spell.
Let's assume a BiS tier build with a spell damage bonus of +35.
This nets you:
3 + Spell damage bonus (Spell A) (+3 if you pass skill test) = 38 (+3)
8 + Spell damage bonus (Spell B ) (+3 if you pass skill test) = 43 (+3)
0.9* (18 + 10 (MeC difference between this and the other spell you could have doubled) + Spell damage bonus (Spell C) ) = 56.7
20 + 12 (MeC difference between this and the other spell you could have doubled) + Spell damage bonus (Spell D) = 67
Net:
All that is 204.7 (+6 if you pass your skill test on spell A and B ) over the course of the entire dungeon.
Let's assume a 10 combat round dungeon. To equip this you give up Medallion of Mystic Mouth and Ioun Stone Fluorite Cube. Over 10 rounds with an 8 point want that costs you -100 (Elf Wizard), or -120 (human Wizard) damage.
The gross benefit is:
Elf Wizard: 204.7 - 100 = +104.7
Human Wizard: 204.7 - 120 = +84.7
Let's compare to another class relic:
Barbarian:
Lose +3 STR from Stu's or Valhalla, gains +6 damage, +1 use of Rage, and Fury.
Let's say we're using VTD rules and the Barbarian hits 80% of the time, and crits 10% of the time because they've gotten their to-hit up to ~+12 on HC or ~+15 on Nightmware.
Lets say we have a 10 round combat, 4 rooms at 2.5 rounds per room.
Let's assume a BiS build with a damage bonus of +45, and an average damage wheel of 12.8.
Then Medallion of Furious attack is:
Flat damage: 10 rounds * 6 damage per round * (0.8 hit + 2*0.1 crit) = 60
Rage damage: 2.5 rounds * 6 damage per round * (0.8 hit + 2*0.1 crit) = 15
Fury damage: ( melee damage bonus + average damage wheel + 6 ) * 0.8 non-crit hit = 55 (assumes this is used while raging).
You lose:
10 rounds * 1.5 missing damage from Stu's * (0.8 hit + 2*0.1 crit) = 15
Net benefit: 130
Gross benefit: 115
Doing an every faster monk analysis:
BiS damage bonus: +35
Damage wheel: 7.5
Relic gives up 1.5 damage per round per hit from losing Stu's.
Relic gains 4 damage per round per hit, and crits on 19.
Total damage over 10 rounds and VTD rules hitting on a 2+, critting on a 9, 10:
With Monk Relic:
2 pucks per round * 10 rounds * ( 35 damage - 1.5 from losing stus + 4 from Monk Relic + 7.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.7 hit + 2*0.2 crit ) = 990
With Stu's:
2 pucks per round * 10 rounds * ( 35 damage + 7.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.8 hit + 2*0.1 crit ) = 850
Gross benefit from Monk Relic: +140 over the course of the Adventure.