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TOPIC: 2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback

2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #25

Daniel White wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Free action attacks are huge. You get your spell damage bonus twice. The tome gives you the extra spells to enable that. A second set of free action spells effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide.

This seems like overkill for a single item.


Some wizard spells, including the high damage ones, do involve a slide.

Normal dungeons often have more than 8 combat rounds.


I don't think 8 free action attacks on a single item is justifiable.


That's fine.

I'm just pointing out that whether 8 free action spells "effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide" is very debatable.


Sure. We don't even need to go down that road. The Relic power is already way out of line with other class tokens. From your own thread, ( www.truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=5&id=251375&start=0 ), on your BiS wizard, MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55).

Even if we were just talking about four free casts of magic missile, the damage value of the relic is at least 220(!) points. Not even getting into the fact higher level spells are available.


Med Evoker's Charm does not function twice in one combat round.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #26

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Free action attacks are huge. You get your spell damage bonus twice. The tome gives you the extra spells to enable that. A second set of free action spells effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide.

This seems like overkill for a single item.


Some wizard spells, including the high damage ones, do involve a slide.

Normal dungeons often have more than 8 combat rounds.


I don't think 8 free action attacks on a single item is justifiable.


That's fine.

I'm just pointing out that whether 8 free action spells "effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide" is very debatable.


Sure. We don't even need to go down that road. The Relic power is already way out of line with other class tokens. From your own thread, ( www.truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=5&id=251375&start=0 ), on your BiS wizard, MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55).

Even if we were just talking about four free casts of magic missile, the damage value of the relic is at least 220(!) points. Not even getting into the fact higher level spells are available.


Med Evoker's Charm does not function twice in one combat round.


Fair enough. 176. I have similar concerns about the cleric proposed item and have shared them.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #27

Daniel White wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Free action attacks are huge. You get your spell damage bonus twice. The tome gives you the extra spells to enable that. A second set of free action spells effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide.

This seems like overkill for a single item.


Some wizard spells, including the high damage ones, do involve a slide.

Normal dungeons often have more than 8 combat rounds.


I don't think 8 free action attacks on a single item is justifiable.


That's fine.

I'm just pointing out that whether 8 free action spells "effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide" is very debatable.


Sure. We don't even need to go down that road. The Relic power is already way out of line with other class tokens. From your own thread, ( www.truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=5&id=251375&start=0 ), on your BiS wizard, MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55).

Even if we were just talking about four free casts of magic missile, the damage value of the relic is at least 220(!) points. Not even getting into the fact higher level spells are available.


Med Evoker's Charm does not function twice in one combat round.


Fair enough. 176. I have similar concerns about the cleric proposed item and have shared them.


Wizard is currently one of the lowest damage classes in the game, getting the ability to dual cast several times helps bring us up more towards the middle of the pack.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #28

While I understand where you're coming from, and in general don't object to the idea of Wizards getting an above-average class neck item, I do not think it is good design to use a single item to balance a class, because that class's balance becomes too dependent on the specific item.

1. Anyone without the "balancing item" gets left in the dust.
2. The balancing item will eventually become harder and harder to get, and relics don't get reprinted.
3. Makes it harder to correct issues in the right way, such as when the class cards eventually get revisited.

Additional actions are particularly problematic, because they're multipliers to all other tokens. Same issue that puts Monk and Ranger where they are on the charts. Anything that multiplies a number you can increase with other tokens is particularly prone to getting out of control.

All for giving wizards a good token, but I don't think this is a good way to do it.

Edit: Free actions, to the extent applied, should probably be on the legendary, not the relic.
Last edit: by Daniel White.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #29

Daniel White wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Free action attacks are huge. You get your spell damage bonus twice. The tome gives you the extra spells to enable that. A second set of free action spells effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide.

This seems like overkill for a single item.


Some wizard spells, including the high damage ones, do involve a slide.

Normal dungeons often have more than 8 combat rounds.


I don't think 8 free action attacks on a single item is justifiable.


That's fine.

I'm just pointing out that whether 8 free action spells "effectively gives wizard 2 spells in combat every turn, while never having to slide" is very debatable.


Sure. We don't even need to go down that road. The Relic power is already way out of line with other class tokens. From your own thread, ( www.truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=5&id=251375&start=0 ), on your BiS wizard, MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55).

Even if we were just talking about four free casts of magic missile, the damage value of the relic is at least 220(!) points. Not even getting into the fact higher level spells are available.


I think you're oversimplifying several things in your analysis and arriving at a wrong conclusion that the Wizard Legendary "is way out of line with other class tokens."

There are two large flaws I see above:

1. MeC is only usable once per round. if you are using MeC on the 4 spells you get from the Wizard Relic, you are not using it on the 4 spells you would have otherwise used it on that you cast as a Standard action.

2. To gain the benefits of the Relic neck, you give up Medallion of Mystic Mouth, which is cranking out 10-12 damage every round - not just for 4 rounds.

Below is a detailed analysis under reasonable assumptions for the Barbarian Relic.

TL;DR: Barbarian, Monk Relics gross more damage than the Wizard relic.

Summary:

Wizard Relic in a BiS build nets ~205 damage over the course of a dungeon, but grosses ~85-105 after considering what the Wizard gives up in the neck slot.

The Barbarian Relic nets ~130 damage over the course of a dungeon, but grosses around ~115 after considering what the Barbarian gives up in the neck slot.

Analysis:

Over the course of the entire dungeon, Wizard relic gives 4 extra spells as a free action:

A. One 3 point (+3 with skill test)
B. One 8 point (+3 with skill test)
C. One 18 point requiring a slide - assume you hit 90% of the time.
D. One 20 point

Assume for spells A and B, you don't double them with MeC, because you double the other spell you cast as a standard action instead.

Assume for spell C and D, you double them with MeC, but at the cost of not doubling the other spell you cast that turn. We take that other spell to be an 8 point spell.

Let's assume a BiS tier build with a spell damage bonus of +35.

This nets you:

3 + Spell damage bonus (Spell A) (+3 if you pass skill test) = 38 (+3)
8 + Spell damage bonus (Spell B ) (+3 if you pass skill test) = 43 (+3)
0.9* (18 + 10 (MeC difference between this and the other spell you could have doubled) + Spell damage bonus (Spell C) ) = 56.7
20 + 12 (MeC difference between this and the other spell you could have doubled) + Spell damage bonus (Spell D) = 67

Net: All that is 204.7 (+6 if you pass your skill test on spell A and B ) over the course of the entire dungeon.

Let's assume a 10 combat round dungeon. To equip this you give up Medallion of Mystic Mouth and Ioun Stone Fluorite Cube. Over 10 rounds with an 8 point want that costs you -100 (Elf Wizard), or -120 (human Wizard) damage.


The gross benefit is:

Elf Wizard: 204.7 - 100 = +104.7
Human Wizard: 204.7 - 120 = +84.7

Let's compare to another class relic:

Barbarian:
Lose +3 STR from Stu's or Valhalla, gains +6 damage, +1 use of Rage, and Fury.

Let's say we're using VTD rules and the Barbarian hits 80% of the time, and crits 10% of the time because they've gotten their to-hit up to ~+12 on HC or ~+15 on Nightmware.

Lets say we have a 10 round combat, 4 rooms at 2.5 rounds per room.

Let's assume a BiS build with a damage bonus of +45, and an average damage wheel of 12.8.

Then Medallion of Furious attack is:

Flat damage: 10 rounds * 6 damage per round * (0.8 hit + 2*0.1 crit) = 60
Rage damage: 2.5 rounds * 6 damage per round * (0.8 hit + 2*0.1 crit) = 15
Fury damage: ( melee damage bonus + average damage wheel + 6 ) * 0.8 non-crit hit = 55 (assumes this is used while raging).

You lose:
10 rounds * 1.5 missing damage from Stu's * (0.8 hit + 2*0.1 crit) = 15

Net benefit: 130
Gross benefit: 115

Doing an every faster monk analysis:

BiS damage bonus: +35
Damage wheel: 7.5

Relic gives up 1.5 damage per round per hit from losing Stu's.
Relic gains 4 damage per round per hit, and crits on 19.

Total damage over 10 rounds and VTD rules hitting on a 2+, critting on a 9, 10:

With Monk Relic:
2 pucks per round * 10 rounds * ( 35 damage - 1.5 from losing stus + 4 from Monk Relic + 7.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.7 hit + 2*0.2 crit ) = 990

With Stu's:
2 pucks per round * 10 rounds * ( 35 damage + 7.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.8 hit + 2*0.1 crit ) = 850

Gross benefit from Monk Relic: +140 over the course of the Adventure.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #30

While I appreciate the thorough analysis, I have a few thoughts:

Benrow's should not have been as strong as it is. Not an appropriate comparison for the same reason that Iktomi's and ranger neck would not be fair comparisons.

I also am not of the view that VTD rules are the appropriate point of balance.

The benefit of free actions scales as the overall power of the class increases. Adding free actions builds in power creep.

The value of damage over time and burst damage is not the same. I would much rather have 10 damage in a single round than 1 damage over 10 rounds, and I'm sure you would too.

Here are a few other suggestions:

1. "Arcane Mysteries" x/room ability, declared before skill test. If test passed, +X damage to your next spell. Something like this would give the skill check a point.

2. "Arcane Shield" "real" Stoneskin in the form of 10 always-on DR.

3. "Elemental Shield" 1/game ability to negate an elemental attack, including a party-wide one.

4. "Dust Eater" Dust-type consumables which benefit spell damage now last for the entire room.
Last edit: by Daniel White.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #31

Daniel White wrote: 4. "Dust Eater" Dust-type consumables which benefit spell damage now last for the entire room.


This doesn't seem like a good legendary effect to be honest. It seems like something that should be naturally available as an oil option for spells and healing the same as it is for melee and ranged weapons
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #32

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote: 4. "Dust Eater" Dust-type consumables which benefit spell damage now last for the entire room.


This doesn't seem like a good legendary effect to be honest. It seems like something that should be naturally available as an oil option for spells and healing the same as it is for melee and ranged weapons


Maybe double the effect of Dusts too.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #33

Daniel White wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote: 4. "Dust Eater" Dust-type consumables which benefit spell damage now last for the entire room.


This doesn't seem like a good legendary effect to be honest. It seems like something that should be naturally available as an oil option for spells and healing the same as it is for melee and ranged weapons


Maybe double the effect of Dusts too.


I would prefer we not add anything consumable related to the Wizard Legendary token unless that addition makes the item non consumable and I do not see that happening for dusts.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #34

Daniel White wrote: While I appreciate the thorough analysis, I have a few thoughts:

Benrow's should not have been as strong as it is. Not an appropriate comparison for the same reason that Iktomi's and ranger neck would not be fair comparisons.


That's fine.

I'm just pointing out that "The Relic power level is already way out of line with other class tokens" is very debatable.

I also am not of the view that VTD rules are the appropriate point of balance.


OK. We disagree about that.

All that really does is tweak the miss/hit/crit rates.

What miss/hit/crit rates do you find reasonable for BiS Bariarian and Monk builds?

We can just plug that into the formulas in the analysis and see what happens as a result.

The benefit of free actions scales as the overall power of the class increases. Adding free actions builds in power creep.

Agreed - or at least free actions that apply one of the spell/ranged/melee damage bonuses.

I don't think, for example, a free action scroll-as-a-scroll, wand, Oil/Bull's Strength etc. contributes to power creep in any way we need to worry about.

The value of damage over time and burst damage is not the same. I would much rather have 10 damage in a single round than 1 damage over 10 rounds, and I'm sure you would too.


It depends. I would rather have 50 a round over 10 rounds than 500 in one round, because overkilling things is phony/wasted damage.

Here are a few other suggestions:

1. "Arcane Mysteries" x/room ability, declared before skill test. If test passed, +X damage to your next spell. Something like this would give the skill check a point.

2. "Arcane Shield" "real" Stoneskin in the form of 10 always-on DR.

3. "Elemental Shield" 1/game ability to negate an elemental attack, including a party-wide one.

4. "Dust Eater" Dust-type consumables which benefit spell damage now last for the entire room.


I like a lot of these ideas.

I feel like Arcane Shield could be a rare scroll to go in the spell book down the line.

Elemental Shield feels a bit more like a Druid thing, or a Psychic thing to me.

I proposed a slotless token that is quite similar to Dust Eater in effect. Basically it had you turn in a bunch at the start to get the bonus on the party card, I'd like that.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #35

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Maybe this is not the reason why it is was changed, but are there any Wizard players here who prefer this version of the Legendary to the prior version?


Not me.


Not me. Prior version had me working towards comparison with current elf wizard build. Current version has me skipping UR, Relic and Legendary all together and wishing the best for wizards who use them.
Last edit: by edwin.
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2021 Wizard Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #36

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Maybe this is not the reason why it is was changed, but are there any Wizard players here who prefer this version of the Legendary to the prior version?


Not me.


Not me. Prior version had me working towards comparison with current elf wizard build. Current version has me skipping UR, Relic and Legendary all together and wishing the best for wizards who use them.


Hopefully there's some updates to the tokens.

I think the Spellbook is too weak as an UR. The relic is decent. Do not like the Legendary
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