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TOPIC: 2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback

2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #109

Maybe the decision points are:

1) "swift strike," whirlwind, expanded crit - choose two.

2) full or reduced stats on relics


I'd go for whirlwind and expanded crit (don't care if its the 19-20 version or the crit range expanded by 1 version)
I'd accept 5/3/2 on the relic and 7/3/4 on the legendary.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #110

  • FatalDrakkon
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Harlax wrote: Maybe the decision points are:

1) "swift strike," whirlwind, expanded crit - choose two.

2) full or reduced stats on relics


I'd go for whirlwind and expanded crit (don't care if its the 19-20 version or the crit range expanded by 1 version)
I'd accept 5/3/2 on the relic and 7/3/4 on the legendary.


I'm saying if we went 3/3/2 then 5/3/3 then maybe we could keep all 3: crit range, swift strike and whirlwind.

Reduce stats to keep all the toys but I am also good with dropping swift strike to keep crit and whirlwind.
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #111

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote: Maybe the decision points are:

1) "swift strike," whirlwind, expanded crit - choose two.

2) full or reduced stats on relics


I'd go for whirlwind and expanded crit (don't care if its the 19-20 version or the crit range expanded by 1 version)
I'd accept 5/3/2 on the relic and 7/3/4 on the legendary.


I'm saying if we went 3/3/2 then 5/3/3 then maybe we could keep all 3: crit range, swift strike and whirlwind.

Reduce stats to keep all the toys but I am also good with dropping swift strike to keep crit and whirlwind.


My preference is 7/3/4 Legendary 5/3/2 Relic, Whirlwind, expanded crit (but swift strike is ok as alternative)

If the choice is whirlwind and swift strike, I assume if there are two monsters, swift strike would mean you could damage both on a successful slide.

Most combats except boss fights last 1-3 rounds. The shorter the fight the more valuable swift strike becomes. The longer the fight the more valuable crit becomes.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #112

Harlax wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote: Maybe the decision points are:

1) "swift strike," whirlwind, expanded crit - choose two.

2) full or reduced stats on relics


I'd go for whirlwind and expanded crit (don't care if its the 19-20 version or the crit range expanded by 1 version)
I'd accept 5/3/2 on the relic and 7/3/4 on the legendary.


I'm saying if we went 3/3/2 then 5/3/3 then maybe we could keep all 3: crit range, swift strike and whirlwind.

Reduce stats to keep all the toys but I am also good with dropping swift strike to keep crit and whirlwind.


My preference is 7/3/4 Legendary 5/3/2 Relic, Whirlwind, expanded crit (but swift strike is ok as alternative)

If the choice is whirlwind and swift strike, I assume if there are two monsters, swift strike would mean you could damage both on a successful slide.

Most combats except boss fights last 1-3 rounds. The shorter the fight the more valuable swift strike becomes. The longer the fight the more valuable crit becomes.


Agree with the above
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #113

Crit is probably more valuable in VTD where its just dice versus sliding. I doubt many people are getting 1 crit per 10 slides.

Swift strike is probably more valuable when sliding as to hit values tend to be very effective.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #114

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote: Maybe the decision points are:

1) "swift strike," whirlwind, expanded crit - choose two.

2) full or reduced stats on relics


I'd go for whirlwind and expanded crit (don't care if its the 19-20 version or the crit range expanded by 1 version)
I'd accept 5/3/2 on the relic and 7/3/4 on the legendary.


I'm saying if we went 3/3/2 then 5/3/3 then maybe we could keep all 3: crit range, swift strike and whirlwind.

Reduce stats to keep all the toys but I am also good with dropping swift strike to keep crit and whirlwind.


My preference is 7/3/4 Legendary 5/3/2 Relic, Whirlwind, expanded crit (but swift strike is ok as alternative)

If the choice is whirlwind and swift strike, I assume if there are two monsters, swift strike would mean you could damage both on a successful slide.

Most combats except boss fights last 1-3 rounds. The shorter the fight the more valuable swift strike becomes. The longer the fight the more valuable crit becomes.


Agree with the above


As long as there is room on the token to reduce the stats on the Relic vs the Legendary, I have no problem with it either. As for the two I'd choose; I'd go with Whirlwind and Expanded Crit (18-20). Jeff put Whirlwind there for a reason and I'm going to trust him. I explaniend the reasoning for the expanded crit in my previous posts.

As for the "Swift Strike" suggestion, as others have pointed out, another pre-combat slide just adds to the list of things to do before actual combat starts and I don't want to do that. I think we all agree that we'd rather have more actual rounds of combat. After all, 10 tokens on the board are more fun and going to do more damage than one.
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #115

Harlax wrote: I'm looking over the most generally floated, accepted ideas. Here is where I think we are. Four main topics with options under each. Its just my take on it and I may have missed something.

1) Stats
a) 7 Str, 3 Dex 4 Con on Legendary.
b) Some reduction on Relic is acceptable - 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 have been proposed. Or
c) Some prefer no reduction on Relic.

2) Shield Bonus
a)+6 Reflex Save. Or
b) Allow 2 handed weapons to be used in one hand.


3) Whirlwind on Legendary
a) Identical damage to an additional melee target if first melee target is hit. Or
b) Replace with pre initiative attack? Automatic on Legendary, As charm of of quick strike on Relic.

4) Expanded Crit
a) All weapons Crit on 19-20 on Legendary. Or
b) Crit range on any usable weapon expanded by 1 on Legendary. Or
c) Replace with pre initiative attack. Automatic on Legendary, As charm of of quick strike on Relic.


There are a lot more suggestions that were on the old threads. I compiled to an XLS, but didn't get around to doing a survey. If anyone cares, I can format for this thread but... I think Jeff's already seen all these options already. :)

Personally, I liked Greed and Glutton for Punishment. And I don't see the benefit of Monkey Grip (2b) as it's (at best according to Endgame's analysis) 9.3 damage. Other options seem better...
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #116

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote: I'm looking over the most generally floated, accepted ideas. Here is where I think we are. Four main topics with options under each. Its just my take on it and I may have missed something.

1) Stats
a) 7 Str, 3 Dex 4 Con on Legendary.
b) Some reduction on Relic is acceptable - 5/3/2 or 5/3/4 have been proposed. Or
c) Some prefer no reduction on Relic.

2) Shield Bonus
a)+6 Reflex Save. Or
b) Allow 2 handed weapons to be used in one hand.


3) Whirlwind on Legendary
a) Identical damage to an additional melee target if first melee target is hit. Or
b) Replace with pre initiative attack? Automatic on Legendary, As charm of of quick strike on Relic.

4) Expanded Crit
a) All weapons Crit on 19-20 on Legendary. Or
b) Crit range on any usable weapon expanded by 1 on Legendary. Or
c) Replace with pre initiative attack. Automatic on Legendary, As charm of of quick strike on Relic.


There are a lot more suggestions that were on the old threads. I compiled to an XLS, but didn't get around to doing a survey. If anyone cares, I can format for this thread but... I think Jeff's already seen all these options already. :)

Personally, I liked Greed and Glutton for Punishment. And I don't see the benefit of Monkey Grip (2b) as it's (at best according to Endgame's analysis) 9.3 damage. Other options seem better...


I've seen them all. I'm sure Jeff has as well. I'm reflecting the options that have the most traction around them and are responsive to the latest version of the token. As I said, its my take. Feel free to produce your own decision tree. I find a decision tree more useful that just compiling a list.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #117

  • FatalDrakkon
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Harlax wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote:

Harlax wrote: Maybe the decision points are:

1) "swift strike," whirlwind, expanded crit - choose two.

2) full or reduced stats on relics


I'd go for whirlwind and expanded crit (don't care if its the 19-20 version or the crit range expanded by 1 version)
I'd accept 5/3/2 on the relic and 7/3/4 on the legendary.


I'm saying if we went 3/3/2 then 5/3/3 then maybe we could keep all 3: crit range, swift strike and whirlwind.

Reduce stats to keep all the toys but I am also good with dropping swift strike to keep crit and whirlwind.


My preference is 7/3/4 Legendary 5/3/2 Relic, Whirlwind, expanded crit (but swift strike is ok as alternative)

If the choice is whirlwind and swift strike, I assume if there are two monsters, swift strike would mean you could damage both on a successful slide.

Most combats except boss fights last 1-3 rounds. The shorter the fight the more valuable swift strike becomes. The longer the fight the more valuable crit becomes.


+1 I support this 100%
If you liked my room, my name is Steve. If you didn't like my room, my name is Hoolio
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #118

Threads are starting to get locked. Looking forward to next iterations.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback 3 years 7 months ago #119

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

FatalDrakkon wrote: I for one LOVE the new design!

Stats? Check!
Saves? Double check!
Cool keyword? Hell yeah!

The ONLY thing not stellar is the crit range as a Thor user but I can't complain about the rest of the package!

Bravo Jeff, I'm making this for sure now!


Don’t fall in love just yet, it’s still early in the process. Yes, Thor’s doesn’t get a lot from the legendary. Unless we will be facing many more rooms with multiple monsters.

But as is, I’ll be making it.


And - power creep being what it is - I hope we get another Fighter Relic (or even Legendary) one handed melee weapon that might have some nice abilities that this token can tag team with.

Thor's was never intended as a top end melee weapon - it's usable by Wizards for crying out loud.


In the next couple of years...
Token Conjurer
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