TOPIC: Time to start the 2021 Token dev process

Druegar wrote: There is a precedant for a single token giving different benefits to different classes: Shoes of Skill . I see no reason why a fighters' legendary couldn't do the same--particularly when there is also precedent for requiring a visit to the TDb to discover the effects of a token, namely Iktomi's Shaper Necklace and Widseth's Legendary Lute .

Preach!

Two solid reason to combine the Wizards and Fighters into 1 token:

1. Half as much arguing during design.

2. Dungeon runs are 10 people. If there were 12 and your party had one of each, you'd be guaranteed to not use 2 of them.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Two solid reason to combine the Wizards and Fighters into 1 token:

1. Half as much arguing during design.

2. Dungeon runs are 10 people. If there were 12 and your party had one of each, you'd be guaranteed to not use 2 of them.

I disagree, if we're designing one for both classes, I think the arguing will be double, which would mean a net of the same amount.

In addition, if you're running with that many, wouldn't you have to have 2, one each for Wizard and Elf Wizard, Fighter and Dwarf Fighter, just in case?

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Two solid reason to combine the Wizards and Fighters into 1 token:

1. Half as much arguing during design.

2. Dungeon runs are 10 people. If there were 12 and your party had one of each, you'd be guaranteed to not use 2 of them.

I disagree, if we're designing one for both classes, I think the arguing will be double, which would mean a net of the same amount.

In addition, if you're running with that many, wouldn't you have to have 2, one each for Wizard and Elf Wizard, Fighter and Dwarf Fighter, just in case?

On the runs I do it is common to have wizard and elf wizard along with dwarf fighter and fighter. Much less common to have either a cleric or a druid. In must runs no cleric and no druid. Using the orignal logic cleric and druid could be combined with another class to keep with 10.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Two solid reason to combine the Wizards and Fighters into 1 token:

1. Half as much arguing during design.

2. Dungeon runs are 10 people. If there were 12 and your party had one of each, you'd be guaranteed to not use 2 of them.

I disagree, if we're designing one for both classes, I think the arguing will be double, which would mean a net of the same amount.

In addition, if you're running with that many, wouldn't you have to have 2, one each for Wizard and Elf Wizard, Fighter and Dwarf Fighter, just in case?

Wade, I think you and Matt H are saying the same thing. If I have to carry both a Wizard and Elf Wizard I’m guaranteed to not be able to use 1 of them Every run.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Two solid reason to combine the Wizards and Fighters into 1 token:

1. Half as much arguing during design.

2. Dungeon runs are 10 people. If there were 12 and your party had one of each, you'd be guaranteed to not use 2 of them.

I disagree, if we're designing one for both classes, I think the arguing will be double, which would mean a net of the same amount.

In addition, if you're running with that many, wouldn't you have to have 2, one each for Wizard and Elf Wizard, Fighter and Dwarf Fighter, just in case?

Wade, I think you and Matt H are saying the same thing. If I have to carry both a Wizard and Elf Wizard I’m guaranteed to not be able to use 1 of them Every run.

He’s saying if there is only 1 token to use for both the Wizard and Elf Wizard, then you need 2 of that Legendary for the run where your party is Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard, Elf Wizard (and your Cleric Legendary will be unused). And then when only one wizard gets played because the 10th player wanted Dwarf Fighter then you’ll have an unused second wizard legendary.

While we’re at it and talking about character class card redesigns, is there any reason we can’t add a duplicate of any other classes? Maybe an Orc Barbarian or a Halfling Druid?

Anthony Barnstable wrote:
Since the goal of these legendaries were to be class specific, should they be as specific as possible and there be 12 in total or to be just as specific as other tokens are and there be 10 in total?

I would split this into two questions. Since we can have the same token have different effects per class, we can have effects that are super specific and still only have 10 tokens (We could also have 12 tokens that are not super specific, but that is an option I haven't seen anybody express much interest in).

I think the biggest benefit of this 'different classes different effect, same token' is we can separate the 10 vs 12 considerations from figuring out what would be cool specific effects. This means people who only want 10 tokens don't have to be against an effect just because it is only for one of the fighters or only for one of the wizards. Similarly, people who want super specific effects don't have to also advocate for 12 tokens.

Michael Ernst wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:
Since the goal of these legendaries were to be class specific, should they be as specific as possible and there be 12 in total or to be just as specific as other tokens are and there be 10 in total?

I would split this into two questions. Since we can have the same token have different effects per class, we can have effects that are super specific and still only have 10 tokens (We could also have 12 tokens that are not super specific, but that is an option I haven't seen anybody express much interest in).

I think the biggest benefit of this 'different classes different effect, same token' is we can separate the 10 vs 12 considerations from figuring out what would be cool specific effects. This means people who only want 10 tokens don't have to be against an effect just because it is only for one of the fighters or only for one of the wizards. Similarly, people who want super specific effects don't have to also advocate for 12 tokens.

With that one specific question, I was not trying to specify “specific tokens in terms of effects”, but specific as in “Wizards only” vs “Elf Wizard only” for who are the characters that can equip the token, printed at the bottom of the token. I agree the effects question can effectively (and probably should be) a separate question from “when printing a legendary for Wizard, should it be usable by both Wizards or just regular Wizard”?

I understand the token can have different effects for each Wizard and still be one token, but then a person who wants to outfit a full party needs 2 of these. And the disadvantage to two separate ones is then players that only make one legendary lock into a single very specific class. But then the argument can be made for a player who bounces between Cleric and Druid or Barbarian and Paladin they don’t have that same advantage so why should the Wizards get that advantage they couldn’t have. The argument goes on and on about the pros and cons and is entirely separate from deciding effects.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Michael Ernst wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:
Since the goal of these legendaries were to be class specific, should they be as specific as possible and there be 12 in total or to be just as specific as other tokens are and there be 10 in total?

I would split this into two questions. Since we can have the same token have different effects per class, we can have effects that are super specific and still only have 10 tokens (We could also have 12 tokens that are not super specific, but that is an option I haven't seen anybody express much interest in).

I think the biggest benefit of this 'different classes different effect, same token' is we can separate the 10 vs 12 considerations from figuring out what would be cool specific effects. This means people who only want 10 tokens don't have to be against an effect just because it is only for one of the fighters or only for one of the wizards. Similarly, people who want super specific effects don't have to also advocate for 12 tokens.

With that one specific question, I was not trying to specify “specific tokens in terms of effects”, but specific as in “Wizards only” vs “Elf Wizard only” for who are the characters that can equip the token, printed at the bottom of the token. I agree the effects question can effectively (and probably should be) a separate question from “when printing a legendary for Wizard, should it be usable by both Wizards or just regular Wizard”?

I understand the token can have different effects for each Wizard and still be one token, but then a person who wants to outfit a full party needs 2 of these. And the disadvantage to two separate ones is then players that only make one legendary lock into a single very specific class. But then the argument can be made for a player who bounces between Cleric and Druid or Barbarian and Paladin they don’t have that same advantage so why should the Wizards get that advantage they couldn’t have. The argument goes on and on about the pros and cons and is entirely separate from deciding effects.

Thank you for clarifying. I had not been thinking about equipability restrictions and it makes sense that those have to be settled.

I will say I think different classes should get different effects regardless of whether or not they share a token, because I see the class relics/legendaries as an opportunity to emphasize what is special about each class.

One related question I have. In Dungeons and Dragons, you would normally say that a gnome fighter and an elf fighter both have the same class. However, in True Dungeon, the 'Dwarf Fighter' and the 'Fighter' are explicitly different classes. Is there some True Dungeon term for the thing 'Dwarf Fighter' and 'Fighter' share, like 'profession' or something?

Anthony Barnstable wrote: While we’re at it and talking about character class card redesigns, is there any reason we can’t add a duplicate of any other classes? Maybe an Orc Barbarian or a Halfling Druid?

Physical space limitation of the party card?

I know Druegar already #Dreamcrushed me, but I still think now would be a great time to go the other direction entirely. Merge Fighters back into one class. Merge Wizards back into one class. Introduce a Race slot and tokens to go in it (or just have a list to pick from). Change party card to just have ten rows with a slider number and color and some space to write in class name. Change sliders to just have a color and number on them. DM just matches puck numbers to party card instead of name matching.

Never have a worry about who picks classes first ever again!

Never think about whether a class-specific token should affect one or both Fighters/Wizards!

Yes, I know there are things to work out (can't have two bardsongs at once, or two Paladins guarding each other, etc), but I do feel it is the one real solution to class selection.

Druegar wrote: There is a precedant for a single token giving different benefits to different classes: Shoes of Skill . I see no reason why a fighters' legendary couldn't do the same--particularly when there is also precedent for requiring a visit to the TDb to discover the effects of a token, namely Iktomi's Shaper Necklace and Widseth's Legendary Lute .

I love it, I love you man!

Fiddy wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: While we’re at it and talking about character class card redesigns, is there any reason we can’t add a duplicate of any other classes? Maybe an Orc Barbarian or a Halfling Druid?

Physical space limitation of the party card?

I know Druegar already #Dreamcrushed me, but I still think now would be a great time to go the other direction entirely. Merge Fighters back into one class. Merge Wizards back into one class. Introduce a Race slot and tokens to go in it (or just have a list to pick from). Change party card to just have ten rows with a slider number and color and some space to write in class name. Change sliders to just have a color and number on them. DM just matches puck numbers to party card instead of name matching.

Never have a worry about who picks classes first ever again!

Never think about whether a class-specific token should affect one or both Fighters/Wizards!

Yes, I know there are things to work out (can't have two bardsongs at once, or two Paladins guarding each other, etc), but I do feel it is the one real solution to class selection.

I love the idea of race tokens. Allowing players to choose race and class. Perhaps they should have different rarities, as the less common races are UR or Relic.

I wouldnt mind.condensing, but I'm sure we'd have spirited discussions around the spell list and abilities.

I think it would be incredibly confusing to have more than one of each class, and an unnecessary change in terms of how we would have to creat so many new sliders, etc.