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TOPIC: Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish

Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #37

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I'm glad the Monk's psychic ability doesn't totally duplicate the Eldritch token anymore, thanks!


Will the combined teeth also imbue psychic in addition to unlocking all the tiers?

Probably but we will see! ;-)

Ed
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #38

Rob F wrote: I'm not seeing how you can get to 300 healing with the Keys and this set bonus?

Check Step 3 below, though I've included the whole math sections for reference.

Math below on the healing for the keys - note, its a VERY large boost to healing for any group that has 10 keys.

Example healing mechanic:
Cure minor wounds heals 3 total (1 base, +2 from LoDS).
It is split across 2 characters, healing each for +2, thus the total healing is 7 hp (+4 bonus healing due to keys).

Step 1: Lower power party healing. 10 keys, 3 +1 level items, and 2 LoDS.
Assumption 1) all players have a key.
Assumption 2) Druid and Cleric have Lense of Divine Sight, and will always split healing across 2 characters
Assumption 3) Bard is 5th level
Assumption 4) Cleric uses Restore Spell on Bard for another Soothe Wounds

A cleric has 10 healing spells. This is +40 healing compared to a party with no keys.
A Druid has 7 healing spells. This is +28 healing compared to a party with no keys.
5th Level bard has 2 healing spells + the one from restore spell. This affects the whole party, and is +60 healing compared to a party with no keys.

The base, low equipment party has healed +108 HP compared to a party without keys.

Step 2: High Equipment Party. Uses Low level party plus additional URs
Assumption 1) Bard equips ring of spell storing, Carter's Tome, Crown of Expertise
Assumption 2) Cleric and Druid equip ring of spell storing and Crown of Expertise
Assumption 3) Druid equips charm of spell swapping, gaining 9 more healing spells.
Assumption 4) Cleric equips charm of spell swappping and gains 2 more healing spells. (does NOT swap prayer and bless)
Assumption 5) Tome slot will prevent Gregor's Tome and Carter's tome from being uses together on Cleric and Druid

Cleric can cast 3 extra spells, and restore spell to Bard. +12 healing (bard covered next).
Bard can cast Soothe wounds 4 more times for +80 healing compared to a party without keys.
Druid can cast 9 more healing spells. +36 healing.

Total additional from high equipment party: 128 HP
High equipment Party (step 1 + step 2):236 HP

Step 3: High Equipment Party as above, adds Arcane set.
Assumption 1) Bard, Cleric, and Druid equip Arcane Set, and use a heal as their "Free spell"
Assumption 2) No spells cast from Bard, Cleric, and Druid until they can heal without wasting healing
Assumption 3) The party has no other + healing items beyond Arcane Belt, Lense of Divine Sight and Keys. Additional focus items can be added in step 4 total.

Bard casts Soothe wounds 1 more time for +52 healing compared to step 2 party party without arcane set.
Druid casts Cure Moderate wounds 1 more time for +21-24 healing compared to step 2 party without arcane set.
Cleric casts Cure Serious wounds 1 more time for +29-32 healing compared to step 2 party without arcane set.

Total additional from arcane set: 102-108 HP
High equipment Party (step 1 + step 2 + step 3):338-344 HP

Step 4 Add +focus items to party:
I won't work all of this out because there are a lot of variations.
Calculate as:
Cleric heal bonus * 13
Druid heal bonus * 17
Bard heal bonus * 7
Last edit: by Endgame.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #39

@Endgame

I don’t question your math, but don’t forget it’s only the first spell. I think a lot of that potential healing gets wasted, unless they wait until room five or six to heal anybody, and that strategy has its own risks.

That said, I don’t really have a lot to say specifically about any particular token this year. Whatever happens happens.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #40

MasterED wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I'm glad the Monk's psychic ability doesn't totally duplicate the Eldritch token anymore, thanks!


Will the combined teeth also imbue psychic in addition to unlocking all the tiers?

Probably but we will see! ;-)

Ed


If it does, I’ll feel kind of silly I buy the Skull
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Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #41

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame

I don’t question your math, but don’t forget it’s only the first spell. I think a lot of that potential healing gets wasted, unless they wait until room five or six to heal anybody, and that strategy has its own risks.

That said, I don’t really have a lot to say specifically about any particular token this year. Whatever happens happens.


Certainly - its almost certainly better that the Cleric cast prayer for free. The druid probably casts a damage spell on the first free cast as well. The bard has no reason to cast a spell until using a free soothe wounds though, which still puts the total at around +300 total healing.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #42

I want to break out the lucky set discussion into its own post, so I can direct link to it from the UR thread without other distractions:

By making the lucky set set bonus at 2 items, in my opinion, it makes the lucky set the most powerful armor set as you get half the redoubt set bonus and the can mix and match any helm.

Notable mix and match head items with lucky armor and shield. I'm comparing to Redoubt set in general, but I'm not sure any other set compares even a little bit to lucky. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

UR Combos:
Redoubt Helm (-2 AC, -2 Str compared to UR Redoubt set, +2 will save, +4 Ref and Fort Saves)
Crown of Might (-6 AC from Redoubt set, +4 all saves)
Charming Crown (-6 AC from Redoubt set, +5 to +8 will saves, + imbue psychic)
Crown of Expertise (-6 AC from Redoubt set, +2 will save, +extra spell or power for cleric or druid)
Cook's Hat (-6 AC from Redoubt set, +2 will, +1 level, -2 IS)

Rare Combos:
Defenders Helm (-5 AC -2 Str from Redoubt set, +5 all saves)
Bliss Bull / Nether Stout (-6 AC, +2 all saves, +round out str or con)
Helm of the Boar (-6 AC, +1 damage, +4 will, -2 ref, +2 fort)
Crown of Iron Will (-6 AC -2 Str from Redoubt set, +6 Will save)

While I left off Blessed Redoubt from the above comparisons, lucky is still in general better than blessed redoubt. Ex, Lucky Plate 9AC, +1 all saves vs 11 AC. Do Cleric and Human fighter ever consider Blessed Redoubt given the helm combinations above?

Given the flexibility of the 2 piece set, I recommend a weaker set bonus for 2 piece. Next year add additional pieces (helm and boots?) and add a 3 piece and possibly 4 piece set bonus.
Last edit: by Endgame.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #43

Endgame wrote: can we change the redoubt set bonus to +2 con?


We should not change set bonuses on UR/Relic/Legendary sets that are out of print and people have organized their builds on, unless it is to make them strictly better for some reason, or to handle a game breaking design oops.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #44

Harlax wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I'm glad the Monk's psychic ability doesn't totally duplicate the Eldritch token anymore, thanks!


Will the combined teeth also imbue psychic in addition to unlocking all the tiers?

Probably but we will see! ;-)

Ed


If it does, I’ll feel kind of silly I buy the Skull


You can always wait till 2021 go see what the completed transmute does before buying the skull.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #45

  • bpsymington
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I am loving these ultra-rares for my wizard. I think the arcane set, the charm, and the ioun stone will be must-buys. The Charm will mean I can drop my gloves of glory and wear Blessed Tempest Gloves.

I imagine most wizards would use the "free" first spell cast as one of their magic missiles, which are perfect for early combats.

If there is too much healing, just say the arcane set bonus doesn't apply to healing spells. It's an "arcane" set, not a "divine" set. :laugh: Clerics and Druids could set get use of the set bonus for damage or boost spells.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #46

My opinion on the Lucky items...

Lucky Set of Armor.

Lucky Light Mail (+6 to AC, +1 to Saves)
Lucky Plate Mail (+9 to AC, +1 to Saves)
Lucky Shield (+4 to AC, +1 to Saves)

Lucky Set Bonus - +5 to Max HP

Comparing to Redoubt Set [and Relic Blessed version after]
Redoubt Mail (+7 AC, -2 Reflex) - [+8 AC]
Redoubt Plate (+10 AC, -2 Reflex) - [+11 AC]
Redoubt Shield (+5 AC, -2 Fort) - [+5]

Redoubt Set Bonus - When at least three items are worn, the character gains +2 to Strength (thus adding +1 To Hit in melee and +1 Damage with melee and thrown weapons) and +5 to max HP.

In reference the Defender Rare items are:
Defender Plate (+8 AC)
Defender Shield (+3 AC)

So lets build a set (Torso, Shield, Head) for each level for Plate wearing and Mail wearing

Rare Mail - (Soul Stained Armor +5, Loki's Trickster +2, -2 Saves, Large Bliss Shield +2 AC) - +9 AC, -2 Saves
Rare Plate - Defender set 13 AC, +1 saves, Freedom of Movement

Lucky Mail (Hat of the Hellway +2 AC) +12 AC, +2 Saves, +5 Max Hps
Lucky Plate (with same Hat) +15 AC, +2 Saves, +5 Max Hps

Redoubt Mail +16 AC, -2 Saves, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps
Redoubt Plate +19 AC, -2 Saves, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps

Relic Redoubt Mail +17 AC, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps
Relic Redoubt Plate +20 AC, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps

Based upon the numbers above I think it is in the middle ground. Lucky should be better then Rare and it is not better than Redoubt even though they are both UR items.

If you still feel your Redoubt items are surpassed by the Lucky ones I would be happy to trade you for them.

Ed
Useful Links:
TD Character Creator
Amorgen's Excel Char Gen Tool
Token DataBase
Talking TD Podcast

TD Accomplishments:
Member of the first team to survive Epic True Grind
1st Solo NM as Poly Druid
Proud member of Gas Station Sushi
Don't Nerf Our Tokens!
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #47

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame

I don’t question your math, but don’t forget it’s only the first spell. I think a lot of that potential healing gets wasted, unless they wait until room five or six to heal anybody, and that strategy has its own risks.

That said, I don’t really have a lot to say specifically about any particular token this year. Whatever happens happens.


Certainly - its almost certainly better that the Cleric cast prayer for free. The druid probably casts a damage spell on the first free cast as well. The bard has no reason to cast a spell until using a free soothe wounds though, which still puts the total at around +300 total healing.


You lost me.

Soothe Wounds is +3 per player. Key is +2 each. Focus goes in a pool to spread around - so let’s assume +10 focus, or 1 each. That’s 60, which agree works great for any party as early as Room 1. Where does the other 240 come from?

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 4 years 8 months ago #48

Quoting MasterED with some light edits to the post for length

MasterED wrote: Lucky Light Mail (+6 to AC, +1 to Saves)
Lucky Plate Mail (+9 to AC, +1 to Saves)
Lucky Shield (+4 to AC, +1 to Saves)
Lucky Set Bonus - +5 to Max HP

Comparing to Redoubt Set [and Relic Blessed version after]
Redoubt Mail (+7 AC, -2 Reflex) - [+8 AC]
Redoubt Plate (+10 AC, -2 Reflex) - [+11 AC]
Redoubt Shield (+5 AC, -2 Fort) - [+5]

Redoubt Set Bonus - +2 to Strength and +5 to max HP.

I'm with you here, with the important note that Lucky plate only requires 2 pieces instead of 3.

MasterED wrote: So lets build a set (Torso, Shield, Head) for each level for Plate wearing and Mail wearing

Rare Mail - (Soul Stained Armor +5, Loki's Trickster +2, -2 Saves, Large Bliss Shield +2 AC) - +9 AC, -2 Saves
Rare Plate - Defender set 13 AC, +1 saves, Freedom of Movement

I disagree with your choice of Mail set - suggest comparing with the footmans set instead of the terrible Loki's Tricker's helm and Soul Stain Armor.

Footman: 9 AC, Cannot be Surprised

Both footman and Defender use 3 slots (helm, shield, torso)

MasterED wrote: Lucky Mail (Hat of the Hellway +2 AC) +12 AC, +2 Saves, +5 Max Hps
Redoubt Mail +16 AC, -2 Saves, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps
Relic Redoubt Mail +17 AC, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps

Hat of the hellway is a poor helm for comparison here, but I'll run with it for a second.

Notice how the 2 piece Lucky set has +4 all save differential from the UR Redoubt mail for 4 AC. That means you're trading +4 to 3 different saves (total 12) for 4 AC, and for mail wearing classes you're probably not worrying about AC in the first place. This is a massive, massive improvement.

At the Relic level, we're a little less crazy - lucky is only 2 saves better at the cost of 5AC. For Barbarian, Druid, and Bard, would you trade +2 all saves for 5AC if you also had the complete freedom to choose a different helm? Interesting helm options are Crown of Expertise (bard, druid), TWolf's (barbarian, druid), Might (Druid, Barb), and more, but I did cover (most) of the options in my other post.

MasterED wrote: Lucky Plate (with same Hat) +15 AC, +2 Saves, +5 Max Hps
Redoubt Plate +19 AC, -2 Saves, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps
Relic Redoubt Plate +20 AC, +2 STR, +5 Max Hps

I want to reiterate that the lucky set is +4 saves over the UR redoubt set. If you want ac, you can use the redoubt helm to shink the difference to 2 AC. I think even Dwarf Fighter and Paladin take that trade: -2 AC for +4 Fort and Ref save, and +2 will save. For Cleric, I think the clear winner is Lucky set + crown of Expertise, and for fighter its either Lucky Set + Crown of Might or Lucky Set + Charming Crown.

Note, this also completely eclipses Templar and Dragscale sets. Are you OK with that?

MasterED wrote: Based upon the numbers above I think it is in the middle ground. Lucky should be better then Rare and it is not better than Redoubt even though they are both UR items.

If you still feel your Redoubt items are surpassed by the Lucky ones I would be happy to trade you for them.

Ed

I'll take you up on that. If the Lucky plate and Lucky shield are published as is, I would like to trade my redoubt shield and redoubt plate for them.
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