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TOPIC: 2020 Rare Beta Images

2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #25

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Why did the wand damage drop to 7?
We already have wands that do 8 and it’s not breaking the game. I would like it to be restored to 8 damage so it matches the last few years wands.


I think the thought was that there are monsters who resist almost every elemental type of damage. To date there is nothing that resists force, but at least one monster (I think) has been vulnerable to it, so those considerations make a Force wand more powerful than any other type.

Some monsters are more vulnerable to a elemental damage, if you know your monster lore and have a large amount of wands, you can pick the right one for the situation. Force doesn’t have this benefit. I think 8 damage is fine, besides wand users have gotten no love this year and in this set.
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #26

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Why did the wand damage drop to 7?
We already have wands that do 8 and it’s not breaking the game. I would like it to be restored to 8 damage so it matches the last few years wands.


I think the thought was that there are monsters who resist almost every elemental type of damage. To date there is nothing that resists force, but at least one monster (I think) has been vulnerable to it, so those considerations make a Force wand more powerful than any other type.


I don’t think damage resistance should be a factor when it comes to setting wand damage. I’ve been using a wand every combat round for the last three years and have never had a resistance problem. Since I generally use current year wands, my theory is that the dungeons aren’t designed to nullify a consumable that was issued that year. (Would be pretty cruel to have people invest in rare consumables from the current set only to nullify them by design.) So because all of the prior elemental wands were not subject to resistance in the year of issue, I don’t think we should dock damage from a force wand that is not going to be resisted either.

Also, given how badly wands were nerfed last year, don’t nerf our best consumable this year.

And don’t make wand users and DMs have to keep track of which wands do how much damage. Rare should always be eight.

Keep it simple. Eight is great.
Last edit: by Boilerplate.
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #27

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Why did the wand damage drop to 7?
We already have wands that do 8 and it’s not breaking the game. I would like it to be restored to 8 damage so it matches the last few years wands.


I think the thought was that there are monsters who resist almost every elemental type of damage. To date there is nothing that resists force, but at least one monster (I think) has been vulnerable to it, so those considerations make a Force wand more powerful than any other type.

Some monsters are more vulnerable to a elemental damage, if you know your monster lore and have a large amount of wands, you can pick the right one for the situation. Force doesn’t have this benefit. I think 8 damage is fine, besides wand users have gotten no love this year and in this set.


+1

Another reason why wand damage type just isn’t terribly relevant in practice. So don’t ding the damage for the purely theoretical benefit of less resistance. Because wand resistance isn’t a real issue, this 7 damage wand is strictly worse than prior year wands.

(And well said on the absence of love for wand users in both the current 2019 set and the proposed 2020 set. If this sticks, this will the second year in a row of wand nerfing. Why was so much recent effort put into token development like Mystic Mouth and the IS Fluorite Cube only to keep nerfing wands?)
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #28

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Why did the wand damage drop to 7?
We already have wands that do 8 and it’s not breaking the game. I would like it to be restored to 8 damage so it matches the last few years wands.


I think the thought was that there are monsters who resist almost every elemental type of damage. To date there is nothing that resists force, but at least one monster (I think) has been vulnerable to it, so those considerations make a Force wand more powerful than any other type.

Some monsters are more vulnerable to a elemental damage, if you know your monster lore and have a large amount of wands, you can pick the right one for the situation. Force doesn’t have this benefit. I think 8 damage is fine, besides wand users have gotten no love this year and in this set.


Force can hit monster with the 50% miss chance 100% of the time. Incorporal (sp) monsters. So that’s why force has been less than other wands in the past. Same for scrolls.
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #29

Kirk Bauer wrote: 2) Amulet of Vigor: WAY too strong. Total of +4 to stats, with 2 of those strength and granting +4hp too. Compare to the (volunteer) Amulet of the Hero which only grants +3 between three stats, I think this should be +1 STR and +1 CON and that still makes it an incredible token especially for new players who have odd starting stats.


I know the separation between Rare and UR is wide in Neck., but I agree with Kirk here. +3 seems more appropriate in light of the volunteer token, +3 makes it on par with volunteer. Just a couple years ago Necklace of the Oak (+2 Str) was consider a strong rare for the slot, and this would be twice a good. Or perhaps +2/+2/-1 option.
Last edit: by David Harris.
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #30

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

James J Krot wrote: Still think the amulet is now a best in rare slot now, it's almost as good as an ultrarare.

It’s better than many URs, and would be a better buy than many URs to upgrade characters.


I don't know which URs you think it is better than, but I don't think so.
I would agree that for the rarity, it is better than all rares.

I think I could go either way, +4 stats total, +3 stats total, with or without strength. Its a great rare, and I will be holding onto any I have to help trade to newer players.
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #31

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

James J Krot wrote: Still think the amulet is now a best in rare slot now, it's almost as good as an ultrarare.

It’s better than many URs, and would be a better buy than many URs to upgrade characters.


I don't know which URs you think it is better than, but I don't think so.
I would agree that for the rarity, it is better than all rares.

I think I could go either way, +4 stats total, +3 stats total, with or without strength. Its a great rare, and I will be holding onto any I have to help trade to newer players.

I wasn’t limiting the discussion to the neck slot when I said better than many URs
It’s better than bracers of fast fitnesses
Most volunteer URs
Amulet of Wonder Some years
Hand of Glory Unless you have legendary rings
In truth there aren’t many UR neck slots
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #32

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

James J Krot wrote: Still think the amulet is now a best in rare slot now, it's almost as good as an ultrarare.

It’s better than many URs, and would be a better buy than many URs to upgrade characters.


I don't know which URs you think it is better than, but I don't think so.
I would agree that for the rarity, it is better than all rares.

I think I could go either way, +4 stats total, +3 stats total, with or without strength. Its a great rare, and I will be holding onto any I have to help trade to newer players.

I wasn’t limiting the discussion to the neck slot when I said better than many URs
It’s better than bracers of fast fitnesses
Most volunteer URs
Amulet of Wonder Some years
Hand of Glory Unless you have legendary rings
In truth there aren’t many UR neck slots

Different slots, different power levels right? Rare gloves are equal to or better than UR volunteer charms, for example.
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #33

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

James J Krot wrote: Still think the amulet is now a best in rare slot now, it's almost as good as an ultrarare.

It’s better than many URs, and would be a better buy than many URs to upgrade characters.


I don't know which URs you think it is better than, but I don't think so.
I would agree that for the rarity, it is better than all rares.

I think I could go either way, +4 stats total, +3 stats total, with or without strength. Its a great rare, and I will be holding onto any I have to help trade to newer players.

I wasn’t limiting the discussion to the neck slot when I said better than many URs
It’s better than bracers of fast fitnesses
Most volunteer URs
Amulet of Wonder Some years
Hand of Glory Unless you have legendary rings
In truth there aren’t many UR neck slots


I find it pointless to compare tokens power without considering the slot.

I feel doing so leads to absurdities, like concluding that some uncommon armor (Fae Oak Armor) is better than a rare volunteer ioun stone (Ioun Stone Onyx Sphere), or a Legendary wrist item (TaMor's +4 Mithral Bracers).

You’re right that there aren’t many ur neck slots. Most of them are clearly better than this token, two are strictly better, most of the rest offer slot swapping / expansion which is thus far always a ur effect.

If you want to argue this is better tha amulet of wonder you’re welcome to - that is matter of taste - for my money AoW is considerably nore powerful given its propensity to generate treasure.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #34

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

James J Krot wrote: Still think the amulet is now a best in rare slot now, it's almost as good as an ultrarare.

It’s better than many URs, and would be a better buy than many URs to upgrade characters.


What ur neck items are worse than amulet of vigor again?

If you just mean better than some ur in any slot, that's hardly surprising, and true of many other rares.


I am just calling it better then the amulet of hero the rare volunteer token.
Last edit: by James J Krot.
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #35

James J Krot wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

James J Krot wrote: Still think the amulet is now a best in rare slot now, it's almost as good as an ultrarare.

It’s better than many URs, and would be a better buy than many URs to upgrade characters.


What ur neck items are worse than amulet of vigor again?

If you just mean better than some ur in any slot, that's hardly surprising, and true of many other rares.


I am just calling it better then the amulet of hero the rare volunteer token.


That's fair, but it's 4 (5?) years out of print by the time this one hits, and amulet of the hero should have probably been printed with less than a 3 stat gap from the amulet of the champion.
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2020 Rare Beta Images 1 month 1 week ago #36

James J Krot wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

James J Krot wrote: Still think the amulet is now a best in rare slot now, it's almost as good as an ultrarare.

It’s better than many URs, and would be a better buy than many URs to upgrade characters.


What ur neck items are worse than amulet of vigor again?

If you just mean better than some ur in any slot, that's hardly surprising, and true of many other rares.


I am just calling it better then the amulet of hero the rare volunteer token.


I'm not sure it is - for new/token 10 pack players AoV is:

+1 to hit/damage with melee, +1 damage thrown weapons, +4 HP, +1 FORT

AoH for new token/10 pack players is:

+1 to hit/damage with melee, +1 damage thrown weapons, +4 HP, +1 FORT, +1 ranged to hit, +1 AC, +1 RFLX

As you begin to acquire tokens one or the other of these is likely to be better in any given situation:

AoV is better when STR and CON are both even, and/or DEX bonuses are undesired

AoH is better when STR and CON are both odd, or in scenarios where DEX bonuses are desired.
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