TOPIC: Int, Wis,and Cha?

Should we start the discussion about these stats and the bonuses from them to help with token creation for 2020?

20 int= bonus Ion Stone
20 Wis= bonus Charm
20 Cha= bonus Figurine (so 3 total)

There needs to be a lot more
To it then that.
I just wanted to put that out there.

20 cha third figurine
16 int second book
20 int third book
20 wis second holy symbol, all symbols may be used when applicable.

Although this assumes some changes.

I thought Wisdom was going to add beads.

With the Charm of Enlightenment, most classes can reach 20 WIS with ease.

If all INT // CHA // WIS become are slot enablers after the revamp, I'm going to be severely disappointed. Right now they're in a bad spot, but it should be better than that.

STR // CON // DEX all directly affect relevant stats in the game. STR is melee hit and damage, DEX is ranged hit, AC, and REF, and CON is HP and FORT. All are relevant stats for survival and success in the dungeon.

Wisdom is a very lame stat at the moment. It directly affects Will, but its primary use until this year was to force a token tax to enable LoDS, and there's only ONE token that buffs it. Post-nerf, it's lost that function completely, making the one token that affects it only a +4 Will charm.

INT is in an even worse spot. Its only current use is as a token tax for MEC, and it grants no bonuses otherwise.

CHA is currently our only slot-enabling stat, and it's a weird one: 16 is enough to grant you another Figurine of Power, but the Figurines have always been very situational tokens. Having a second one has never felt like a relevant thing for any kits I've built out over my career (granted, to this point I've only played up to Hardcore level. Vets // True Grind players, feel free to chime in and disagree).

=========================================

Adding additional slots does scale your power, but it doesn't scale your power INTRINSICALLY. You need additional tokens to make use of your increased stats, which A) doesn't feel as good as the scaling you get from adding additional relevant stats, and b) increases the gap between new players (who won't even have enough tokens to fill out all slots) and higher spending vets who can. Building for STR // DEX // CON right now are interesting, because each breakpoint gives you a tangible benefit without having to grab another token to make use of it. We should aspire to make INT // WIS // CHA as close to that experience as possible.

My suggestion:

INT: damage focus
WIS: healing focus + Will
CHA: ... honestly, I don't know what to do with CHA. I don't like the FoP system, and while I think Slotless is getting out of hand, I really dislike having a stat devoted to enabling extra slots. Maybe having a certain CHA threshold can grant in-dungeon effects (a bonus clue from a friendly NPC in certain puzzle rooms, perhaps).

I think it should be standardized across the board

15 CHA - 2 FoP
Every +5 CHA = +1 FoP

15 WIS - 2 Beads
Every +5 WIS = +1 Bead

15 INT - 2 Tomes
Every +5 INT = +1 Bead

Phil

I know everyone hates D&D 4 but one thing I liked was their 'defenses' model that allows all stats to be useful.

Examples:

- If you are wearing Light Armor (could be defined in TD as anything a Bard, Monk, Rogue, or Wizard could wear) or no armor your AC mod is the better of your DEX or your INT.
- Fortitude was determined by the better of your STR or CON
- Reflex was determined by the better of your DEX or INT
- Will was determined by the better of your WIS or CHA

We could do all that, with the exception of making Fort saves depend on STR.

We could also add in other bonuses:

- INT modifier as a spell damage modifier (perhaps limited to only some subset of spells for balance)
- WIS as a spell healing modifier (perhaps limited to some subset of spells for balance)

We could get creative:

Ranger WIS bonuses impact party initiative, maybe Bard CHA bonuses influence monster damage.

Another option is a partition stats into two categories:

STR, DEX, CON - Effect stats (hit, damage, AC, saves)

INT, WIS, CHA - Effects slots (number of slots, allowed equipment)

Having to trade off the important party card stats directly versus getting more slots seems fun to me.

INT, WIS, CHA could effect things like:
* The number of runestones you can use
* The number/effectiveness of scrolls, portions, ammo, dust you can use
* The number of free actions you can use per combat
* The number and level of spells you can use
* In the future, we could increasingly have token stat restrictions on UR+ tokens related to these 3 stats - e.g. UR Gloves of the Champion - +5 STR, requires 16 CHA


Under this proposal we'd probably need to remove Will save bonuses from the WIS stat. So far that effects exactly one token, which could just be errated to say: +8 to Wisdom, +4 to Will saves.

isauteikisa wrote: If all INT // CHA // WIS become are slot enablers after the revamp, I'm going to be severely disappointed. Right now they're in a bad spot, but it should be better than that.

STR // CON // DEX all directly affect relevant stats in the game. STR is melee hit and damage, DEX is ranged hit, AC, and REF, and CON is HP and FORT. All are relevant stats for survival and success in the dungeon.

Wisdom is a very lame stat at the moment. It directly affects Will, but its primary use until this year was to force a token tax to enable LoDS, and there's only ONE token that buffs it. Post-nerf, it's lost that function completely, making the one token that affects it only a +4 Will charm.

INT is in an even worse spot. Its only current use is as a token tax for MEC, and it grants no bonuses otherwise.

CHA is currently our only slot-enabling stat, and it's a weird one: 16 is enough to grant you another Figurine of Power, but the Figurines have always been very situational tokens. Having a second one has never felt like a relevant thing for any kits I've built out over my career (granted, to this point I've only played up to Hardcore level. Vets // True Grind players, feel free to chime in and disagree).

=========================================

Adding additional slots does scale your power, but it doesn't scale your power INTRINSICALLY. You need additional tokens to make use of your increased stats, which A) doesn't feel as good as the scaling you get from adding additional relevant stats, and b) increases the gap between new players (who won't even have enough tokens to fill out all slots) and higher spending vets who can. Building for STR // DEX // CON right now are interesting, because each breakpoint gives you a tangible benefit without having to grab another token to make use of it. We should aspire to make INT // WIS // CHA as close to that experience as possible.

My suggestion:

INT: damage focus
WIS: healing focus + Will
CHA: ... honestly, I don't know what to do with CHA. I don't like the FoP system, and while I think Slotless is getting out of hand, I really dislike having a stat devoted to enabling extra slots. Maybe having a certain CHA threshold can grant in-dungeon effects (a bonus clue from a friendly NPC in certain puzzle rooms, perhaps).

Given the focus items that already add to healing and damage, would additional bonuses be too much? We just had a year where healing was specifically reduced because it was seen as being too powerful.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I know everyone hates D&D 4 but one thing I liked was their 'defenses' model that allows all stats to be useful.

Examples:

- If you are wearing Light Armor (could be defined in TD as anything a Bard, Monk, Rogue, or Wizard could wear) or no armor your AC mod is the better of your DEX or your INT.
- Fortitude was determined by the better of your STR or CON
- Reflex was determined by the better of your DEX or INT
- Will was determined by the better of your WIS or CHA

We could do all that, with the exception of making Fort saves depend on STR.

We could also add in other bonuses:

- INT modifier as a spell damage modifier (perhaps limited to only some subset of spells for balance)
- WIS as a spell healing modifier (perhaps limited to some subset of spells for balance)

We could get creative:

Ranger WIS bonuses impact party initiative, maybe Bard CHA bonuses influence monster damage.

Reflex and AC determined by Intelligence? Me no like. Doesn't seem right.

Rob F wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I know everyone hates D&D 4 but one thing I liked was their 'defenses' model that allows all stats to be useful.

Examples:

- If you are wearing Light Armor (could be defined in TD as anything a Bard, Monk, Rogue, or Wizard could wear) or no armor your AC mod is the better of your DEX or your INT.
- Fortitude was determined by the better of your STR or CON
- Reflex was determined by the better of your DEX or INT
- Will was determined by the better of your WIS or CHA

We could do all that, with the exception of making Fort saves depend on STR.

We could also add in other bonuses:

- INT modifier as a spell damage modifier (perhaps limited to only some subset of spells for balance)
- WIS as a spell healing modifier (perhaps limited to some subset of spells for balance)

We could get creative:

Ranger WIS bonuses impact party initiative, maybe Bard CHA bonuses influence monster damage.

Reflex and AC determined by Intelligence? Me no like. Doesn't seem right.

The AC part has a restriction on the armor being worn.

But basically the point is:

If your goal is to have stat boosters for all 6 stats be interesting, then they all need to do something players care about.

One way to go about that is to come up with at least 6 different things players care about, one for each stat.

Another way is to group stats into 3 groups of 2, and then make each group responsible for something the players care about.

Fiddy wrote: Given the focus items that already add to healing and damage, would additional bonuses be too much? We just had a year where healing was specifically reduced because it was seen as being too powerful.

We haven't seen the full effects of the LoDS nerf // Eldritch changes in play yet. My opinion on whether WIS should have a healing focus effect may well change depending on how things play out this year.

I think 2020 could be a rough year for balance if INT // WIS granted bonuses that year. With the character card revamp coming in 2021, I think that things could be brought better into line there. I'm not concerned about tokens currently - right now, the best you can get INT-wise from tokens is an extra +5 damage, and Wisdom is +4 from the Charm. With a grand total of 4 items (two of which are relic // legendary) that grant bonuses currently, I think that we're fine from a token standpoint if we're just mindful of it moving forward: I think the bigger fix is to "bake in" the starting stats that characters get into the spells from the character cards (in much the same way as starting STR // DEX // CON contribute to the party card stats now) and work from there.