TOPIC: Feedback for Improvements for True Dungeon

As a pretty new player, my friends and I have been experiencing a phenomenon on the last few True Dungeon episodes that we have run that I'd like to discuss. We were being paired up with players who had either:

a) Volunteered at the episode we were doing
b) Already run the episode we were doing (in some cases multiple times)
c) Were so geared up that they were far beyond us newer players.

They insisted that we run Normal difficulty (so they could ensure the most treasure pulls), and also insisted that they wouldn't help with any puzzles. Unfortunately, they seemed not to be able to help themselves (this happened in multiple runs) to giving enough hints so that we could not help but pass the puzzles.

Combat was 1 round every time, with the exception of once when it went two rounds. The newer players damage was outstripped by the verterans, and so you didn't feel as though you were helping that much in either the combat or the puzzles.

Is there some way that True Dungeon could matchmake players of similar level/experience/knowledge so that players can appropriately decide on a difficulty level and not have all the combat/puzzles spoiled?

It would really enhance our experience if that was the case.

Stephen Mitchell wrote: They insisted that we run Normal difficulty (so they could ensure the most treasure pulls),

Can you elaborate on this, treasure shouldn't be effected by difficulty (xp or completion token perhaps?)

Stephen Mitchell wrote: Combat was 1 round every time, with the exception of once when it went two rounds. The newer players damage was outstripped by the verterans, and so you didn't feel as though you were helping that much in either the combat or the puzzles.

For what its worth I ran nightmare this year with an appropriately geared group and I felt like few combats lasted longer then 2 rounds.

Stephen Mitchell wrote: Is there some way that True Dungeon could matchmake players of similar level/experience/knowledge so that players can appropriately decide on a difficulty level and not have all the combat/puzzles spoiled?

It would really enhance our experience if that was the case.

To a certain extent we try to self police on that one by buying out runs. It would be very difficult to have a more formal system given how gencon sells tickets. In any case I am sorry to hear you had a less then awesome time.

TD tickets are bought through the [GenCon/Origins/PAXs/Gamehole] Con Event Systems.

I'm going to answer your question with a bit of sarcasm thrown in...

The only solution would be to get a job as a computer program system designer and design a whole new Event system for all/some of the Cons that enable a person to select their experience level.

Then add a program that gives a complete psychological profile of the people buying TD tickets to detect if they are lying or not and just trying to get on a newbie/less experienced run while being a veteran or vice versa.

Or... or...

Try and buy out a whole run which ensures you have control of who is on your run.

I understand your frustration, but there is NO WAY True Dungeon can control who buys tickets when events go live in an Event System.

This is a bit of a tough nut;

first a little clarification: Difficulty doesn't affect treasure pulls (nor does dying in the game), but Nightmare gets 2 completion tokens, Hardcore gets a Rare completion token, and Normal gets an Uncommon treasure token.

As far as not being overpowered/contributing to combats, currently the only way to know is to check the forum for groups getting together - usually groups on the forum are collecting for Hardcore or Nightmare, so the move would actually be to either find a normal group gathering, avoid the HC/NM groups, or post your own post. Unfortunately, a lot of the Normal-level or new players don't check the forum.

As far as fresh eyes for the puzzles, currently the best advice would be to get runs early on the first day of a con; though even that might not work after your first run. Also, at cons like South, West, and Gamehole Con, there will be more fresh eyes and fewer veterans playing on repeat. Still, it's no guarantee.

Now; as to whether something could be done to make this easier.

It's theoretically possible to adjust the TD events site (though I dunno about GenCon, which uses its own ticketing system) for players to self-report desired difficulty levels and past experience with adventures; or an automated system that indicates how many runs of a particular dungeon that IP had purchased. It would take some work and it wouldn't solve GenCon.

Now, maybe wherever tickets are sold could have a link to the forums, where we could make a greater effort to track/self-report which players have seen a dungeon before, or are looking for a group that is all new to the experience. That's the change that would be easiest to implement and has the potential for helping the most people, as far as I can see.

Singsalot wrote: This is a bit of a tough nut;

first a little clarification: Difficulty doesn't affect treasure pulls (nor does dying in the game), but Nightmare gets 2 completion tokens, Hardcore gets a Rare completion token, and Normal gets an Uncommon treasure token.

As far as not being overpowered/contributing to combats, currently the only way to know is to check the forum for groups getting together - usually groups on the forum are collecting for Hardcore or Nightmare, so the move would actually be to either find a normal group gathering, avoid the HC/NM groups, or post your own post. Unfortunately, a lot of the Normal-level or new players don't check the forum.

As far as fresh eyes for the puzzles, currently the best advice would be to get runs early on the first day of a con; though even that might not work after your first run. Also, at cons like South, West, and Gamehole Con, there will be more fresh eyes and fewer veterans playing on repeat. Still, it's no guarantee.

Now; as to whether something could be done to make this easier.

It's theoretically possible to adjust the TD events site (though I dunno about GenCon, which uses its own ticketing system) for players to self-report desired difficulty levels and past experience with adventures; or an automated system that indicates how many runs of a particular dungeon that IP had purchased. It would take some work and it wouldn't solve GenCon.

Now, maybe wherever tickets are sold could have a link to the forums, where we could make a greater effort to track/self-report which players have seen a dungeon before, or are looking for a group that is all new to the experience. That's the change that would be easiest to implement and has the potential for helping the most people, as far as I can see.

They tried, many times, to set up dedicated runs. “Nightmare only,” things like that. People ignored them, and newbies who didn’t understand bought those tickets anyway. The only thing that has shown any traction along those lines is the sealed pack dungeon. That dungeon was intended to be a safe place for new players to play and avoid all those pitfalls Stephan pointed out.

It’s a shame so many vets can’t help themselves and take so many tickets that are meant for newbies, but oh well. Did those dungeons have unique completion tokens? If so, they shouldn’t, just to minimize the attraction to non-newbies. There was a question in another thread about whether or not Level 6+ players could get a fourth TC. I think the better question is whether Level 6+ players might be prohibited from playing that dungeon at all. But I digress.

Selling 10-packs of tickets would help, too. That way maybe the suitcase players could ensure they have an entire party down with their intended difficulty level and have fewer reasons to try to impose their will on others.

Stephen Mitchell wrote: As a pretty new player, my friends and I have been experiencing a phenomenon on the last few True Dungeon episodes that we have run that I'd like to discuss. We were being paired up with players who had either:

a) Volunteered at the episode we were doing
b) Already run the episode we were doing (in some cases multiple times)
c) Were so geared up that they were far beyond us newer players.

They insisted that we run Normal difficulty (so they could ensure the most treasure pulls), and also insisted that they wouldn't help with any puzzles. Unfortunately, they seemed not to be able to help themselves (this happened in multiple runs) to giving enough hints so that we could not help but pass the puzzles.

Combat was 1 round every time, with the exception of once when it went two rounds. The newer players damage was outstripped by the verterans, and so you didn't feel as though you were helping that much in either the combat or the puzzles.

Is there some way that True Dungeon could matchmake players of similar level/experience/knowledge so that players can appropriately decide on a difficulty level and not have all the combat/puzzles spoiled?

It would really enhance our experience if that was the case.

I just wanted to say on behalf of the community I am sorry that was your experience, if you didn't let the AC know at the end of the run I can point you in the right direction to reach out to them directly. I ran on rooms that I had already run but I really tried to make the rest of the run for everyone else. It can be a balance sometime but it sounds like you had multiple bad experiences. I am going to try to address some of the points made here.

a) Volunteered at the episode we were doing

This is really crappy that a volunteer ruined the experience for you, most of the time if I know what the puzzle is I only give the rogue clue out if we don't have a rogue in the party. Honestly its the room DM job to help with the puzzles not someone who has ran the dungeon before.

b) Already run the episode we were doing (in some cases multiple times)

Many groups I know if we have run the run multiple times ask if anyone has not done the puzzle yet and give you a chance to run, thats how it should be.

c) Were so geared up that they were far beyond us newer players.

I run into this problem, heres the thing if you get a run of 9 nightmare people and 1 normal person and the normal person doesn't agree to nightmare you run on normal. Sometimes the other players try to boost the odd man out so to speak but if its more of a 50/50 split then it just sucks. In those instances I have a specific low powered build that the Coach can use or I just ask them to take numbers off my character I really don't need to be doing + 27 damage on Normal make it a +7 or something. Players should be able to police themselves and when they can't it sucks.

We have talked about stat caps and stat min before for certain runs but honestly people can just not be horrible about it and why they choose to be that way I have no idea.

First of all, let me apologize for some players bad behavior.

I’ve been running for many years and am always hyper vigilant about ensuring the best possible experience for new players.

My suggestion to you would be search the forums for groups prior to buying runs. I’m familiar with most of the groups and they are generally designed to ensure the best possible experience for everyone involved. Some of the groups to look for are(and I apologize in advance if I miss someone):
Blue Brotherhood, Team Yeti, Team Synergy, Trent’s Token Runs, and runs organized by token resellers such as Ed.
All of these folks do a great job of the best Experience possible.

I do wish True Dungeon was able to sell entire runs (or at least a limited number of them). I like running with a mix of groups and some of my best experiences are running with new players. But some of the challenges mentioned are sometimes really tough to deal with. I try really hard not to give away answers in any puzzle rooms, but if players ask, I may give the rogue clue (if they didn't get it) and possibly a hint or two. But then I don't check with all the other players, so just because some ask that doesn't mean everyone wanted the hint. I know I don't just give away the answers as evidenced by the damage I took from a number of failed puzzles.

But then a couple of years ago I ran into a situation where a player was frustrated that I knew the answer. It's not that I was giving away hints or answers, but it frustrated him that we didn't have a full group of 10 players available to work the puzzle because 1 or more already knew the answer. I didn't have an answer to that then, I still don't have a good one. Sometimes I will pretend to help work the puzzle without really saying or doing anything not suggested by someone else. I still enjoy doing multiple runs and would love to sign up for more in the forums, but at Gen Con it's just very difficult to have enough options to fill out a schedule without grabbing slots with PUGs.

Coordination on the forums can be a crap shoot.

I go to conventions to do TD and other things.

I have noticed that a number of forum organized runs interfere with other events I want to do. For GenCon I noticed more groups dictating terms to join in. These are two reasons I don't join a lot of the precoordinate runs.

Dave wrote: I do wish True Dungeon was able to sell entire runs (or at least a limited number of them). I like running with a mix of groups and some of my best experiences are running with new players. But some of the challenges mentioned are sometimes really tough to deal with. I try really hard not to give away answers in any puzzle rooms, but if players ask, I may give the rogue clue (if they didn't get it) and possibly a hint or two. But then I don't check with all the other players, so just because some ask that doesn't mean everyone wanted the hint. I know I don't just give away the answers as evidenced by the damage I took from a number of failed puzzles.

But then a couple of years ago I ran into a situation where a player was frustrated that I knew the answer. It's not that I was giving away hints or answers, but it frustrated him that we didn't have a full group of 10 players available to work the puzzle because 1 or more already knew the answer. I didn't have an answer to that then, I still don't have a good one. Sometimes I will pretend to help work the puzzle without really saying or doing anything not suggested by someone else. I still enjoy doing multiple runs and would love to sign up for more in the forums, but at Gen Con it's just very difficult to have enough options to fill out a schedule without grabbing slots with PUGs.

A couple things i have done:

At origins 2018, i went on my own, no group. So, i played in a lot of PUGs with newer players. First, i made it clear that if they dont want to borrow, thats cool. I offered TEs and any items i felt important (ie. Sneak attack 1st round, a couple +1 level items). I mention that i do have more stat boosters if wanted, but downplayed them as not needed for a first run. Lastly, after the party card is filled out i offered +HP for empty slots. For my own build, i prefered a wand wizard. I got some wand damage in every round so the group made decent progress, but slid my dagger of arcane luck, prefering to bump others twice into better hits...and my dagger even hit sometimes, but never for big damage.

For puzzles, if i know the answer, i stand back and let the rest work on it. I dont like giving clues because it is so easy to misjudge how much you are giving away. Ive been on a run with someone who said he will only give small hints, and then he proceeded to give away the entire crux of the puzzle within the first 2 minutes multiple times that run. EXCEPT, i will often share info that *I* figured out for my previous party, if the current group has failed to make those connections/deductions.

edwin wrote:
I have noticed that a number of forum organized runs interfere with other events I want to do. For GenCon I noticed more groups dictating terms to join in. These are two reasons I don't join a lot of the precoordinate runs.

You mean like difficulty level and class selection? That is the main reason for pre-coordinated runs to sort that stuff out. If you mean theme runs then yes if people want to play a theme of whatever they would want you to follow the theme to play.

Re: how to handle puzzles you know the solution to - here is a formula honed over the years.

1. Don’t reveal that you know the solution - even having this knowledge causes other players to interpret your behavior differently.

Saying: “I know the answer and will give you hints if you ask.” Backfires more than it helps - it can make you look smug and like you’re lording it over them.

2. Don’t offer clues of any kind. It’s hard to judge what you’re giving away.

The worst thing I’ve ever seen in a dungeon was a huge man hulking over a petite woman repeating the same (unhelpful) clue over and over while she tried to figure out how to unlock a lock. It definitely wasn’t helping.

* of course it’s fine to offer the rogue clue if you’re the rogue.

3. Just stand around and ask: how can I help? what should I do? I’ll hold this end of the thing?