TOPIC: Damage Reduction - take two

Endgame wrote:

Rob F wrote: So Deathward does not mitigate Fire, Shock, etc? Because it looks like that's what you're saying. It looks like Deathward is getting nerfed and Trilliant gets to double dip. "All" should be equivalent to Tokens that say "&".

Deathward is All Damage, in that you take -3 damage from any damage source. Grunnel Christmas adventure deals 6 mistletoe and 6 holly damage for 12 total damage? Subtract 3 and take 9 total damage.


Thunder snow deals 6 sonic damage and 6 cold damage for 12 total damage? Subtract 3 and take 9 total damage.

I agree with Rob on this. "All" is equal to a whole bunch of "ands" in my book. If a token like Trilliant can reduce damage from multiple sources, the Greaves should reduce damage from every type of source. It makes zero sense that the Trilliant reduces damage from two sources simultaneously but the Greaves only reduces once. Greaves should be more/equally powerful across different types than the Trilliant, not less.

If the Greaves can only be applied once on an attack even if there are different damage types, tokens like the Trilliant should only be applied once also.

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Rob F wrote: So Deathward does not mitigate Fire, Shock, etc? Because it looks like that's what you're saying. It looks like Deathward is getting nerfed and Trilliant gets to double dip. "All" should be equivalent to Tokens that say "&".

Deathward is All Damage, in that you take -3 damage from any damage source. Grunnel Christmas adventure deals 6 mistletoe and 6 holly damage for 12 total damage? Subtract 3 and take 9 total damage.


Thunder snow deals 6 sonic damage and 6 cold damage for 12 total damage? Subtract 3 and take 9 total damage.

I agree with Rob on this. "All" is equal to a whole bunch of "ands" in my book. If a token like Trilliant can reduce damage from multiple sources, the Greaves should reduce damage from every type of damage. It makes zero sense that the Trilliant reduces damage from two sources simultaneously but the Greaves only reduces once. Greaves should be more/equally powerful across different types that the Trilliant, not less.

The Trilliant doesn’t do anything if the damage isn’t a matching damage type, so deathward is much better against Holly damage.

I would happily support nerfing the Trilliant to only apply 10 total reduction per attack, regardless of matching damage types if that would make everyone feel better

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Rob F wrote: So Deathward does not mitigate Fire, Shock, etc? Because it looks like that's what you're saying. It looks like Deathward is getting nerfed and Trilliant gets to double dip. "All" should be equivalent to Tokens that say "&".

Deathward is All Damage, in that you take -3 damage from any damage source. Grunnel Christmas adventure deals 6 mistletoe and 6 holly damage for 12 total damage? Subtract 3 and take 9 total damage.


Thunder snow deals 6 sonic damage and 6 cold damage for 12 total damage? Subtract 3 and take 9 total damage.

I agree with Rob on this. "All" is equal to a whole bunch of "ands" in my book. If a token like Trilliant can reduce damage from multiple sources, the Greaves should reduce damage from every type of damage. It makes zero sense that the Trilliant reduces damage from two sources simultaneously but the Greaves only reduces once. Greaves should be more/equally powerful across different types that the Trilliant, not less.

The Trilliant doesn’t do anything if the damage isn’t a matching damage type, so deathward is much better against Holly damage.

I would happily support nerfing the Trilliant to only apply 10 total reduction per attack, regardless of matching damage types if that would make everyone feel better

My point is that the Greaves should be read as specifically matching every damage type other than Eldritch. It prevents damage from all types and sources other than push and Eldritch.

If the rule is that a token's DR can be applied more than once if there are different types, then the Greaves should apply separately to all of them as it was in the initial post.

If the Greaves can only be applied once, then tokens like the Trilliant should only be applied once also.



I

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Rob F wrote: So Deathward does not mitigate Fire, Shock, etc? Because it looks like that's what you're saying. It looks like Deathward is getting nerfed and Trilliant gets to double dip. "All" should be equivalent to Tokens that say "&".

Deathward is All Damage, in that you take -3 damage from any damage source. Grunnel Christmas adventure deals 6 mistletoe and 6 holly damage for 12 total damage? Subtract 3 and take 9 total damage.


Thunder snow deals 6 sonic damage and 6 cold damage for 12 total damage? Subtract 3 and take 9 total damage.

I agree with Rob on this. "All" is equal to a whole bunch of "ands" in my book. If a token like Trilliant can reduce damage from multiple sources, the Greaves should reduce damage from every type of damage. It makes zero sense that the Trilliant reduces damage from two sources simultaneously but the Greaves only reduces once. Greaves should be more/equally powerful across different types that the Trilliant, not less.

The Trilliant doesn’t do anything if the damage isn’t a matching damage type, so deathward is much better against Holly damage.

I would happily support nerfing the Trilliant to only apply 10 total reduction per attack, regardless of matching damage types if that would make everyone feel better

My point is that the Greaves should be read as specifically matching every damage type other than Eldritch. It prevents damage from all types and sources other than push and Eldritch.

If the rule is that a token's DR can be applied more than once if there are different types, then the Greaves should apply separately to all of them as it was in the initial post.

If the Greaves can only be applied once, then tokens like the Trilliant should only be applied once also.



I

Amen Brother.

Make the rule where you just add everything up to each DR category (Deathward adds to every category because it's ALL) and then have the player pick one to apply, you would get the following:

Volcanic Fist (20 melee/fire damage)
DR: 3 (Melee from Deathward)
DR: 3 (Fire from Deathward)

Pick one. Player pics Fire.
Result: 20 – 3 = 17 damage taken


Holy Arrow (15 missile/sacred damage)
DR: 3 (Missile from Deathward)
DR: 13 (Sacred from Deathward and Stone)

Pick one. Player pics Sacred.
Result: 15 – 13 = 2 damage taken


Thunder Strike (20 spell/shock damage)
DR: 3 (Spell from Deathward)
DR 5 (Shock from Deathward and Earcuff)

Pick one. Player picks Shock.
Result: 20 – 5 = 15 damage taken


Chaos Storm (25 spell/darkrift/sacred damage)

DR: 3 (Spell from Deathward)
DR 13 (Darkrift from Deathward and Stone)
DR 13 (Sacred from Deathward and Stone)

Pick one. Player picks Darkrift.
Result: 25 – 13 = 12 damage taken

This is by far the easiest. One simple equation to do vs multiple, all Tokens get counted towards a DR category, no double dipping, easy to do in the character generators and for players to visualize because they just need to look at one number.

The way Wyld has explained it now makes the most sense to me, and is how I was already calculating both my Barbarian 1 DR and the Deathward Greaves.

If people want the Greaves to double, triple, and potentially quad dip (thinking of Marc’s example of Prismatic Spray) I suggest TD start equipping Monsters with them and then explaining to players who do multiple damage types why the monsters block more damage when you’ve added more power to an attack.

Marc D wrote: I like that double dipping is now gone, as that was the confusing part for me. Getting 3*N DR from Deathward Greaves being the biggest example - it didn't make sense that one token could potentially hit the cap on a Prismatic Spray-type attack that did Spell + 6 different typed damages.

AAckeret wrote: The way Wyld has explained it now makes the most sense to me, and is how I was already calculating both my Barbarian 1 DR and the Deathward Greaves.

If people want the Greaves to double, triple, and potentially quad dip (thinking of Marc’s example of Prismatic Spray) I suggest TD start equipping Monsters with them and then explaining to players who do multiple damage types why the monsters block more damage when you’ve added more power to an attack.

Marc D wrote: I like that double dipping is now gone, as that was the confusing part for me. Getting 3*N DR from Deathward Greaves being the biggest example - it didn't make sense that one token could potentially hit the cap on a Prismatic Spray-type attack that did Spell + 6 different typed damages.

I don't specifically want it to count multiple times, I just want the rules to be consistent. If tokens like Trilliant count multiple times against different damage types, the Greaves should also. If tokens like Trilliant only count once, the Greaves should also only count once. I'm actually fine either way, I just want it to be consistent.

Saying the Greaves count for all damage types except for Eldritch is exactly the same as saying it counts specifically for fire, shock, cold, etc.

In these examples the Trilliant is much more broken than the Greaves. The Trilliant did the max damage reduction of 20 by itself. An attack would have to have seven different types of damage for the Greaves to be able to stop 20 points.

The Legendary Trilliant is MUCH more broken than the Greaves under these rules. It would stop the max 20 points of DR with any combination of Cold, Darkrift, Fire, Sacred, Shock, and Sonic. TokenDB actually says it could potentially stop 60 points of damage, but I'm guessing that's not correct anymore?

Mike Steele wrote: Saying the Greaves count for all damage types except for Eldritch is exactly the same as saying it counts specifically for fire, shock, cold, etc.

In these examples the Trilliant is much more broken than the Greaves. The Trilliant did the max damage reduction of 20 by itself. An attack would have to have seven different types of damage for the Greaves to be able to stop 20 points.

Where does it say the Greaves count for all damage types? I see it counts for all attacks/effects.

The examples tend towards outlandish, I believe on purpose. When is the last time in dungeon we had an sacred/fire attack that the Trilliant would max DR all by itself? Either way, I doubt we’ll see very much dungeon design in the future that doubles up on damage types on the Trilliant.

Wyld wrote: Unsure what delivery methods or damage types an attack consists of? Just ask your DM!

It is very important that the DMs have this information clearly spelled out.

AAckeret wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Saying the Greaves count for all damage types except for Eldritch is exactly the same as saying it counts specifically for fire, shock, cold, etc.

In these examples the Trilliant is much more broken than the Greaves. The Trilliant did the max damage reduction of 20 by itself. An attack would have to have seven different types of damage for the Greaves to be able to stop 20 points.

Where does it say the Greaves count for all damage types? I see it counts for all attacks/effects.

The examples tend towards outlandish, I believe on purpose. When is the last time in dungeon we had an sacred/fire attack that the Trilliant would max DR all by itself? Either way, I doubt we’ll see very much dungeon design in the future that doubles up on damage types on the Trilliant.

Tokendb for Ioun Stone Sunstone Trilliant says "Cold, Darkrift, Fire, Sacred, Shock, and/or Sonic damage inflicted on the user is reduced by 10 points per attack/effect."

Tokendb for Deathward Greaves says "All damage (except for Push and Eldritch) inflicted upon the wearer is reduced by 3 per attack/effect."

They are clearly saying the same thing, except the Greaves is even broader because it could cover more damage types than the six types listed by the Trilliant. They should be applied consistently.

I feel as if we are trying to design rules here to balance its token after a creation. A token DR only applying against one of its types I would argue is not a intuitive way to read the token, even if it would be more balanced.

If there is an errata to be had it would be on the tokendb entry of Deathward Greaves to state
"-3 Damage from any source (Except Push and Eldritch)". That clears up all wording, keeps token text inline with its intent and matches Wyld's existing writeup. As an attack can not be from multiple sources. As if the intent was to give "+3 DR to all damage types" it would have be written as such on the token

I have stated many times I do not like the Trilliant Tokens, but I do not want to write rules that cause confusion because of that dislike.

I also think the DR Cap is non-intuitive method to try to balance a token in post and not a good rule. But I lost that fight years ago

Impy wrote: There are a lot of people getting into trying to design rules here to balance its token after a creation. A token DR only applying against one of its types is not a intuitive way to read the token, even if it would be more balanced.

If there is an errata to be had it would be on the tokendb entry of Deathward Greaves to state
"-3 Damage from any source (Except Push and Eldritch)". That clears up all wording, keeps token text inline with its intent and matches Wyld's existing writeup. As an attack can not be from multiple sources. As if the intent was to give "+3 DR to all damage types" it would have be written as such on the token

I have stated many times I do not like the Trilliant Tokens, but I do not want to write rules that cause confusion because of that dislike.

I also think the DR Cap is non-intuitive method to try to balance a token in post and not a good rule. But I lost that fight years ago

That would be nerfing the Greaves without similarly nerfing the Trilliant (and similar tokens). By saying "except Eldritch" it is saying that it prevents damage from all other damage types. It can't simply type out the damage types like Trilliant does, because it is literally all damage types other than Eldritch, including any that might not have been introduced yet. But it still clearly prevents damage from multiple damage types just like Trilliant tokens do.

I'm very confused on why people are so intent on reducing the power of the Greaves which only prevents 3 damage per type as opposed to the Trilliant tokens which prevent 10 damage from each type. I'm totally fine with a solution that the damage reduction is only applied once, or a solution that applies it to all relevant damage types. I just ask that it be consistent across the board, and the TokenDB entries for Greaves and Trilliant tokens be written similarly and consistently.

If your wording is adopted for the Greaves, I suggest that this wording be used for the Legendary Trilliant "-10 Damage from any source which includes Cold, Darkrift, Fire, Sacred, Shock, and/or Sonic damage".

I agree with you that I also dislike the Trilliant tokens, and said that during token design. I didn't think any of them should apply to multiple damage types.