TOPIC: NEWEST! Rules on Treasure Enhancers & "Ghosting"

Looking forward to seeing the treasure pedestal - should be a fun prop!

balthasar wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: now to throw another monkey wrench in

What if the player holding the TEs, dies in room 3 (needs to leave restroom, sick ..etc). How will that be handled

They don't need to be shown in Epilgoue, but that player could still pass them off to another party?

Yes, that is the one loophole I see with not showing them in the epilogue room. A player could game the system by joining a bunch of runs (say 36 to 48 minutes apart) and then dying in room 1 (or even leaving the training room) and going to the coaching room for the next run with the same treasure-enhancers. However I don't think this is a huge deal for a few reasons:

• You could do this legitimately every 2 hours, so you are missing out on actual fun and only doubling your treasure draws.
• If lending TEs to the party, they'd have to trust the people in the group to get them a cut of the treasure, if they were farming. It would be pretty much impossible to coordinate people you know and trust on a specific schedule like that. Unless they just wanted to randomly spread the wealth.
• 99% of the players with a bunch of TEs are going to want to actually enjoy themselves[/i]

Also if we start seeing people leave the dungeon in the training room or room #1 I'm hoping it would be reported to an AC so we can watch if the same person keeps doing it.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

balthasar wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: now to throw another monkey wrench in

What if the player holding the TEs, dies in room 3 (needs to leave restroom, sick ..etc). How will that be handled

They don't need to be shown in Epilgoue, but that player could still pass them off to another party?

Yes, that is the one loophole I see with not showing them in the epilogue room. A player could game the system by joining a bunch of runs (say 36 to 48 minutes apart) and then dying in room 1 (or even leaving the training room) and going to the coaching room for the next run with the same treasure-enhancers. However I don't think this is a huge deal for a few reasons:

• You could do this legitimately every 2 hours, so you are missing out on actual fun and only doubling your treasure draws.
• If lending TEs to the party, they'd have to trust the people in the group to get them a cut of the treasure, if they were farming. It would be pretty much impossible to coordinate people you know and trust on a specific schedule like that. Unless they just wanted to randomly spread the wealth.
• 99% of the players with a bunch of TEs are going to want to actually enjoy themselves[/i]

Also if we start seeing people leave the dungeon in the training room or room #1 I'm hoping it would be reported to an AC so we can watch if the same person keeps doing it.

Agreed anyone abusing the system should be identified as quickly as possible to Jeff and Co. I support highest level of punishment Jeff thinks is fit.

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

balthasar wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: now to throw another monkey wrench in

What if the player holding the TEs, dies in room 3 (needs to leave restroom, sick ..etc). How will that be handled

They don't need to be shown in Epilgoue, but that player could still pass them off to another party?

Yes, that is the one loophole I see with not showing them in the epilogue room. A player could game the system by joining a bunch of runs (say 36 to 48 minutes apart) and then dying in room 1 (or even leaving the training room) and going to the coaching room for the next run with the same treasure-enhancers. However I don't think this is a huge deal for a few reasons:

• You could do this legitimately every 2 hours, so you are missing out on actual fun and only doubling your treasure draws.
• If lending TEs to the party, they'd have to trust the people in the group to get them a cut of the treasure, if they were farming. It would be pretty much impossible to coordinate people you know and trust on a specific schedule like that. Unless they just wanted to randomly spread the wealth.
• 99% of the players with a bunch of TEs are going to want to actually enjoy themselves[/i]

Also if we start seeing people leave the dungeon in the training room or room #1 I'm hoping it would be reported to an AC so we can watch if the same person keeps doing it.

Agreed anyone abusing the system should be identified as quickly as possible to Jeff and Co. I support highest level of punishment Jeff thinks is fit.

Except that that behavior is actually permissible under the current rules.

Jeff should probably include a clause about TE's needing to be carried through the whole run. It doesn't have to specify if individual players need to carry them or if one centralized person carries them. It doesn't have to mention that the TE's won't be verified after the training room. But if he includes such a clause, then someone trying to leave the dungeon, taking their TE's, and then using them on a concurrent run, would be running afoul of that clause.

jedibcg wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Harlax wrote: Like the things that have changed. shows.

Agreed. I think the trainer-tweak addresses the cross-party lending issues.

Would still like allowance for 1 or two ghosts at "other" Cons to deal with any last minute no shows.

If you can return tickets for a refund, that helps mitigate things.

Someone said at Origins you cannot refund a ticket unless the event is cancelled.


I am fine with the ruling. Only thing it affects for me is I will not host any runs at conventions besides Gen Con. I have had whole groups not show for a run. It is rare and it pisses me off, but having something to fall back on is nice. This is not an issue though that TD doesn't have fix though so I will just adjust my ticket purchasing for other cons to only buying tickets for myself. I will still do theme runs but I am not going to risk buying all the tickets and getting stuck with one if someone no shows.

Mitigate the risk by insisting on payment before you are onsite.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Jeff,

Thanks as always for listening to all of our feedback. I think the treasure-enhancer rules are just perfect, but we'll see at Origins. This will also help the non-training coaches since they won't have to deal with TEs.

I don't hate the limitations on ghosting, but I don't love them either. But I don't think I have the data to say how good or bad it will be. At GenCon I doubt there are many runs with more than 5 ghosts anyways. Mostly I regret not doing a solo run while it was more affordable. I do think at smaller events if you don't have a ticket sell-out you could open up ghosting perhaps. But by then perhaps all the serious players will already have locked in their plans.

PS - you will need to emphasize to the trainers that players can't leave the training room after they get their treasure tokens recorded. Perhaps they should mention that right away: "if you have treasure-enhancers, put them over here, but remember you can't leave the dungeon after that without forfeiting your run".

That is when I usually take the opportunity to go to the rest room. I suppose I will have to move it up five minutes and while still in the coaches room. Twelve minutes shouldn't matter I suppose (no moRe bing soda drinking prior!).

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

balthasar wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: now to throw another monkey wrench in

What if the player holding the TEs, dies in room 3 (needs to leave restroom, sick ..etc). How will that be handled

They don't need to be shown in Epilgoue, but that player could still pass them off to another party?

Yes, that is the one loophole I see with not showing them in the epilogue room. A player could game the system by joining a bunch of runs (say 36 to 48 minutes apart) and then dying in room 1 (or even leaving the training room) and going to the coaching room for the next run with the same treasure-enhancers. However I don't think this is a huge deal for a few reasons:

• You could do this legitimately every 2 hours, so you are missing out on actual fun and only doubling your treasure draws.
• If lending TEs to the party, they'd have to trust the people in the group to get them a cut of the treasure, if they were farming. It would be pretty much impossible to coordinate people you know and trust on a specific schedule like that. Unless they just wanted to randomly spread the wealth.
• 99% of the players with a bunch of TEs are going to want to actually enjoy themselves[/i]

Also if we start seeing people leave the dungeon in the training room or room #1 I'm hoping it would be reported to an AC so we can watch if the same person keeps doing it.

Agreed anyone abusing the system should be identified as quickly as possible to Jeff and Co. I support highest level of punishment Jeff thinks is fit.

Except that that behavior is actually permissible under the current rules.

Jeff should probably include a clause about TE's needing to be carried through the whole run. It doesn't have to specify if individual players need to carry them or if one centralized person carries them. It doesn't have to mention that the TE's won't be verified after the training room. But if he includes such a clause, then someone trying to leave the dungeon, taking their TE's, and then using them on a concurrent run, would be running afoul of that clause.

I agree, the rules need to say that the TE Tokens need to be carried through the Dungeon, even if there is no verification in the epilogue room. Otherwise, some people may find a way around doing it, and claim it was within the rules.

jedibcg wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Harlax wrote: Like the things that have changed. shows.

Agreed. I think the trainer-tweak addresses the cross-party lending issues.

Would still like allowance for 1 or two ghosts at "other" Cons to deal with any last minute no shows.

If you can return tickets for a refund, that helps mitigate things.

Someone said at Origins you cannot refund a ticket unless the event is cancelled.


I am fine with the ruling. Only thing it affects for me is I will not host any runs at conventions besides Gen Con. I have had whole groups not show for a run. It is rare and it pisses me off, but having something to fall back on is nice. This is not an issue though that TD doesn't have fix though so I will just adjust my ticket purchasing for other cons to only buying tickets for myself. I will still do theme runs but I am not going to risk buying all the tickets and getting stuck with one if someone no shows.

OK, so how would that work at non Gen Con conventions. You bought ten tickets to the run, had two no shows. What happens next. Does TD get two more people from the wait-list to run? Do they pay you or the Conventions for these two slots that you already paid for? What if there are not any on the wait-list? You still have two ghosts then or not? Basically, what does "No Ghosting" mean? Is it applied to just TEs and in-game effects (TE multiplier, Cabalis, etc.) or the whole thing?

Harlax wrote: Mitigate the risk by insisting on payment before you are onsite.

My friends don't pay for runs. I buy all the tickets, I am not reimbursed. That is part of the reason it sucks so much when they don't show up. Not because I am out money but because I am sure I could have found a different friend to come on the run because who doesn't like free runs?

That also assumes I have 10 people when ticket go on sale. For theme runs at smaller cons that is something I have rarely had done. But like I said elsewhere if I have 10 foumites that commit to a theme run ahead of time, I would consider hosting. But it is not worth the risk to buy up a run and then turn it into a theme. Maybe I was doing it backwards but it mostly worked. If I look at Origins I haven't see any organized theme runs on the forums yet. Like I said this is something I can live with I am just changing my ticket buying for smaller events to negate the risk involved.

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

balthasar wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: now to throw another monkey wrench in

What if the player holding the TEs, dies in room 3 (needs to leave restroom, sick ..etc). How will that be handled

They don't need to be shown in Epilgoue, but that player could still pass them off to another party?

Yes, that is the one loophole I see with not showing them in the epilogue room. A player could game the system by joining a bunch of runs (say 36 to 48 minutes apart) and then dying in room 1 (or even leaving the training room) and going to the coaching room for the next run with the same treasure-enhancers. However I don't think this is a huge deal for a few reasons:

• You could do this legitimately every 2 hours, so you are missing out on actual fun and only doubling your treasure draws.
• If lending TEs to the party, they'd have to trust the people in the group to get them a cut of the treasure, if they were farming. It would be pretty much impossible to coordinate people you know and trust on a specific schedule like that. Unless they just wanted to randomly spread the wealth.
• 99% of the players with a bunch of TEs are going to want to actually enjoy themselves[/i]

Also if we start seeing people leave the dungeon in the training room or room #1 I'm hoping it would be reported to an AC so we can watch if the same person keeps doing it.

Agreed anyone abusing the system should be identified as quickly as possible to Jeff and Co. I support highest level of punishment Jeff thinks is fit.

Except that that behavior is actually permissible under the current rules.

Jeff should probably include a clause about TE's needing to be carried through the whole run. It doesn't have to specify if individual players need to carry them or if one centralized person carries them. It doesn't have to mention that the TE's won't be verified after the training room. But if he includes such a clause, then someone trying to leave the dungeon, taking their TE's, and then using them on a concurrent run, would be running afoul of that clause.

I agree, the rules need to say that the TE Tokens need to be carried through the Dungeon, even if there is no verification in the epilogue room. Otherwise, some people may find a way around doing it, and claim it was within the rules.

You may not need to worry about this.. Before the tokens could be loaned out for free x number of times. Now there's a cost of a wasted ticket and a time investment. Both would be deterrents to people casually doing this. A party would not be happy is some person bails in room 2 and after a couple times people would start to talk.

However, I don't mind if there's a rule that the tokens need to make it to the epilogue room, because TD staff reserves the right to spot check TEs.

I think we should give the rules a go as they are proposed hear, and then reevaluate if it's still a significant issue.

If I'm Broaching, I wear a Shade Cloak. Otherwise, my cleric has Sceptre of the Dead.

"You can't leave, you can still help with puzzles!"

Whatever rules Jeff puts down I will support, my concern is at non-GenCon conferences a no-show will reduce someone's treasure count by 1 even though one might own personally 10 CoA's... maybe an allowance for that would be good? On no-shows, still allow the synergistic enhancements if enough are in the party? (Charm of Synergy, CoA, Cabal, etc.)