TOPIC: Should Ghost Players be allowed at Origins?

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote: Note: I am not planning to attend Origins this year.

My initial inclination is that no, ghost players should not be allowed at Origins:

1. There are fewer total tickets available.

2. Presumably, having TD at Origins is partly intended to reach out to a new player base. In that situation you really want more new players to have access to it.


However, I do think that some form of ghosting should be allowed at GenCon. (There needs to be some balance between ghosting versus mule'ing).

I'd agree with that, as long as you mean ghost players couldn't get loot (or could only get a significantly reduced amount of loot), but otherwise people could have ghost players.

If 10 players bought an average of 5 runs each for treasure farming with ghost players, that would be 25% of the total amount of tickets. That amount wouldn't surprise me at all.

I would argue that Origins should have the same "ghosting" policy as TDC.

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote: Note: I am not planning to attend Origins this year.

My initial inclination is that no, ghost players should not be allowed at Origins:

1. There are fewer total tickets available.

2. Presumably, having TD at Origins is partly intended to reach out to a new player base. In that situation you really want more new players to have access to it.


However, I do think that some form of ghosting should be allowed at GenCon. (There needs to be some balance between ghosting versus mule'ing).

I'd agree with that, as long as you mean ghost players couldn't get loot (or could only get a significantly reduced amount of loot), but otherwise people could have ghost players.

If 10 players bought an average of 5 runs each for treasure farming with ghost players, that would be 25% of the total amount of tickets. That amount wouldn't surprise me at all.

I would argue that Origins should have the same "ghosting" policy as TDC.

I would not argue with your argument.

Would a middle ground, maybe for GENCON, be that the Ghost player can get the initial 10 pack of tokens and the standard 3 Treasure Coins, but that nothing can raise that number of treasure coins above 3?

I would argue with your arguments.

1). This is a solution to a "problem" that has not yet been officially named as a problem.

2). It penalizes parties who have last minute no shows.

3). TDC was a special case given the extremely low ticket price.

If we must have ghosting limitations how about limiting the number of wristbands a player can benefit from. If every player was limited to two wristbands, then the double down groups are covered and parties are protected against a no show or two.

Harlax wrote: I would argue with your arguments.

1). This is a solution to a "problem" that has not yet been officially named as a problem.

2). It penalizes parties who have last minute no shows.

3). TDC was a special case given the extremely low ticket price.

If we must have ghosting limitations how about limiting the number of wristbands a player can benefit from. If every player was limited to two wristbands, then the double down groups are covered and parties are protected against a no show or two.

Since we're going around in circles again... how about let's solve Origins first.

Assuming we want GenCon to be the "gold standard" of loot per dollar of ticket price, we could do this at Origins:

1. Leave all ghost rules the same.
2. At the end of the adventure, everyone draws three chips from a box with an identical mix as GenCon.
3. All TE-granted bonus chips come from a watered-down box.

New and non-TE players get more loot for their ticket dollar. If the mix is right, those of us who draw the max get the exact same expected value per ticket dollar.

I made some assumptions, did math-stuff and calculated that adding equal parts of "GenCon mix" and uncommons is just about right.

What I mean is, (average max Origins loot value)/(Origins ticket price) is about equal to (average max GenCon loot)/(GenCon ticket price)

Doesn't penalize no-shows
Doesn't encourage farming or ghosting anymore than at GenCon
Newbies make out
Max-loot players break even
Mid-loot players still do better than at GenCon

Many more pros and cons, but IMO, if the farming and ghosting problems exist, they do so because of our insatiable appetite for loot, so we have to be willing to give up a little to avoid the disruptions of rationing (which is essentially what anti-ghosting rules are.) And nobody wants the main treasure mix diluted, but something has to change or everything is going to change.

Would be more equitable to make it based on average margin per ticket.

Something like:
(average loot value)/(margin per ticket)

edwin wrote: Would be more equitable to make it based on average margin per ticket.

Something like:
(average loot value)/(margin per ticket)

Although I am not advocating this I wanted to point out: If you want to bring value in to the equation - you would have to factor in current year of loot. 2016 loot in 2017 is worth less than 2017 loot.

Ed

Harlax wrote: I would argue with your arguments.

1). This is a solution to a "problem" that has not yet been officially named as a problem.

2). It penalizes parties who have last minute no shows.

3). TDC was a special case given the extremely low ticket price.

If we must have ghosting limitations how about limiting the number of wristbands a player can benefit from. If every player was limited to two wristbands, then the double down groups are covered and parties are protected against a no show or two.

I agree with Harlax three points and why I posted in the Gen Con thread .

Ed

edwin wrote: Would be more equitable to make it based on average margin per ticket.

Something like:
(average loot value)/(margin per ticket)

I don't know what "margin" means, but by "loot" I meant: a ten-pack at $5 and treasure at $3 each, and the uncommons used to dilute at $1 each.

The ratio worked out at 1:1

Ed makes a good point. Origins loot isn't as valuable as fresh GenCon loot. But then Thursday loot is worth more than Sunday loot. It's impossible to be totally accurate without using time-variant calculus, so approximations must be made. But maybe you could back off some on the extra UCs

Don't know if people have noticed, but my personal bell weather is Raven. She was second in line at the first TD dungeon, so she's been playing and volunteering longer than me be quite a margin. If she has a concern or opinion, I give that a lot of weight. And if I can't get her support for one of my ideas, I assume it's a bad one. She has a lot more experience than I. (I value everyone's opinion, but hers the most. So when she says changing the ghosting rules would be bad, I take that as fact, so we have to try something else. YMMV.)

Re: Ten-pack at $5 - if you buy in multiples of 250, you get a $100 PYP, so you're really paying 150 for 30 packs.

OBTW - there was no way to balance the equation at TDC without adding tons of commons, so rationing tickets (I.e. Banning ghosts) was the only way to go

Brad Mortensen wrote: Newbies make out

Nice try Brad, but you're going to have to offer a lot more treasure to get the newbies to do this.

Joshua Baessler wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Newbies make out

Nice try Brad, but you're going to have to offer a lot more treasure to get the newbies to do this.

Do what? If they have no TEs, this has zero effect on newbies. They just get three chips for a 25% cheaper ticket.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Joshua Baessler wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Newbies make out

Nice try Brad, but you're going to have to offer a lot more treasure to get the newbies to do this.

Do what? If they have no TEs, this has zero effect on newbies. They just get three chips for a 25% cheaper ticket.

I think you missed the joke Brad.



That would be the newbies making out......

He was making a joke about newbs making out....as in kissing and groping.

But to steer us back on topic, I will stick with my YES ghost should be allowed at Origins. Now whether they should get full, partial, or no treasure I will again leave up to debate.

If the past two newest cons (WYC and GHC) have taught us anything it is that it may take a year for TD to get a following.