TOPIC: Missed GenCon, Game Hole Con exp for 2016?

Mike Steele wrote: A totally out-of-the-box solution that I don't think has been mentioned (although since we're past Post #250 it could have been) would be to have a separate track of XP for GHC and WYC. Maybe they would be starting at level 1 as of next year, tracked separately from GENCON. I do see the logistical problems with that, but it would help those that feel they are so far behind on GENCON XP, and maybe it would help drive attendance at those conventions without taking away at GENCON.

Assuming an intended long term presence at each con, and general availability of admission, I think having separate leaderboards by con is a great idea - clearly some people prize spots on the leaderboard - so it would seem to build loyal attendance at other cons.

This probably makes the most sense if all cons have the same XP and the cap is at least what you get from 2 cons - otherwise it might have the negative consequence of keeping people from attending more cons, because they want the for XP at the one that they are at the top of the leaderboard.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: A totally out-of-the-box solution that I don't think has been mentioned (although since we're past Post #250 it could have been) would be to have a separate track of XP for GHC and WYC. Maybe they would be starting at level 1 as of next year, tracked separately from GENCON. I do see the logistical problems with that, but it would help those that feel they are so far behind on GENCON XP, and maybe it would help drive attendance at those conventions without taking away at GENCON.

Assuming an intended long term presence at each con, and general availability of admission, I think having separate leaderboards by con is a great idea - clearly some people prize spots on the leaderboard - so it would seem to build loyal attendance at other cons.

This probably makes the most sense if all cons have the same XP and the cap is at least what you get from 2 cons - otherwise it might have the negative consequence of keeping people from attending more cons, because they want the for XP at the one that they are at the top of the leaderboard.

I was thinking that GHC and WYC might share an XP track, since they would be starting up at the same time, but separate tracks might work too.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm not confident this is an accurate assessment. You make level 3 with 3000 XP - which is 5 dungeons at Normal (assuming you make it to then end).

For the first 3-5 years I played my friends and I:

1. Played every year, but we could take it or leave it.
2. Entered XP every year (even without really understanding what it was for).
3. Didn't really understand the rules, didn't participate in the secondary token market, didn't spend much on tokens (maybe a few extra 10-packs bought at the con).

As an example of my level of investment, when True Realm was going on, I was like: "What? That's weird? Who would want to do that?" and now I'm like "Darn - really missed out on something special!"

Eventually I, and to a lesser extent my friends. started interacting with the second token market, optimizing our builds, etc.

I definitely would have been confused/disappointed to attend TD at another venue and find there was no XP.

TL;DR: Some non-hardcore players in your taxonomy definitely track/enter/care about experience. Getting to player level 3 is feasible in a few years with minimal effort.

I think we're talking past each other.

I never said 'walk ins' don't track exp. I simply doubt many of them are accruing 4k exp per year, or would be of vastly increased likelihood to worry about that cap if exp was offered at other conventions (or concerned about the cap they're not hitting in the first place). The players concerned about the 4k limit (raising it, keeping it the same, etc) are presumably not likely to be 'casual players', they are by definition, at least capable, geared, and willing to give HC/NM a shot. This is said without judgement, it is great to be a casual player, *I'M* a casual player, but I made 1k exp in my first and only dungeon, top 100 leaderboard status is the last thing I'm concerned about.

For these customers it's presumably The Adventure that attracts them, not 'getting to level 3 in the True Dungeon's Player Rewards system'. There may indeed be SOME people for whom that's a draw, I'm simply extrapolating from experiences in other games with such rewards setups, a good portion of the playerbase generally does not care.

Adding the ability to do the Grind events at level 2 may attract some, picking classes some others, but I think for many players who aren't hyper focused on a class, there's minimal direct appeal in the exp system until 15k exp (again, barring someone interested enough to be on the forums enough to actually care about the title/subforum).

That's 1 full normal run for Grind, and 15 full runs of Normal for an extra treasure. At my current rate of increase, I will get that around... 2044. Though it's possible my group will start going often enough to amend that closer to 2030 or maybe even 2025 or so (a number of awesome folks here have offered slots in their famously awesome runs, but obviously we can't fit 10,000 assorted players into double runs if there's only like 8k slots to begin with between the two dungeons). Again, I'm trying to emphasize the difference between the players who maybe do it once per year or every other year, versus the people who are doing 2-4+ runs per year; catering to both sides isn't going to mesh easily.

I mean, I hope to play more often, but we're already talking about a game that adds up to a considerable expense, time allotment, and frankly there aren't remotely enough slots to go around to imagine that a large number of 'walk ins' are able to do this. There's what, 8k tickets sold? With all the people here that talk about buying out full runs (let alone multiple full runs), and the "you must be THIS tall to ride" aspects of Hardcore/Nightmare, I feel my point stands.

Mathematically there don't seem to be nearly enough top tier runs going around for 'walk ins' or casual players to be worried about the 4k cap, they're not hitting it as it is.

But if other cons added experience, it's possible some might stumble into greater amounts, but again, we're talking about people who would have to hit multiple conventions for True Dungeon in particular, at which point we're getting away from either of those groups.

That's part of what I was trying to express; there are multiple player types who enjoy the game, and finding a 'one size fits all' solution may be impossible, because some of those general expectations (based on anecdote and gut feeling, I'm not trying to sell this as Doctoral research here) may well be mutually exclusive.

Which comes back to my point that while it's fascinating to discuss (I certainly am enjoying the thought exercise), we may simply not have the business model information in the background to make an educated statement regarding what it would cost TD and/or how much extra overhead it would create versus what they would expect it to draw in.

Also to be pedantic, you can make 3k exp in 3 Normal runs if you make it to the end, or 5 Normal even if you die in room one, or 5 on Non-Lethal. :-P

You only score XP from your two best runs, as long as they are different dungeons. You can get that with two runs on HC/NM. A casual player can get 2k from two Normal runs, but won't score more than that without higher difficulties. I really hope we just extend the two run limit to all of the cons, with a max of 4k allowed per year.

balthasar wrote: You only score XP from your two best runs, as long as they are different dungeons. You can get that with two runs on HC/NM. A casual player can get 2k from two Normal runs, but won't score more than that without higher difficulties. I really hope we just extend the two run limit to all of the cons, with a max of 4k allowed per year.

That's my preferred solution as well. The only reason I can think of that Jeff might not want to do that is concern that a significant number of players might decide to skip doing runs at GENCON in favor of doing lower priced runs at WYC or GHC, both saving them money and freeing up time at GENCON to do all the other stuff available there. I think that isn't likely to happen, but as the owner of True Dungeon Jeff might err on the side of caution.

Mike Steele wrote:

balthasar wrote: You only score XP from your two best runs, as long as they are different dungeons. You can get that with two runs on HC/NM. A casual player can get 2k from two Normal runs, but won't score more than that without higher difficulties. I really hope we just extend the two run limit to all of the cons, with a max of 4k allowed per year.

That's my preferred solution as well. The only reason I can think of that Jeff might not want to do that is concern that a significant number of players might decide to skip doing runs at GENCON in favor of doing lower priced runs at WYC or GHC, both saving them money and freeing up time at GENCON to do all the other stuff available there. I think that isn't likely to happen, but as the owner of True Dungeon Jeff might err on the side of caution.

Or if Jeff wants to increase participation/attendance at all events. So he increases the XP cap and allows separate XP to be earned at GenCon and/or WYC/GHC.

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

balthasar wrote: You only score XP from your two best runs, as long as they are different dungeons. You can get that with two runs on HC/NM. A casual player can get 2k from two Normal runs, but won't score more than that without higher difficulties. I really hope we just extend the two run limit to all of the cons, with a max of 4k allowed per year.

That's my preferred solution as well. The only reason I can think of that Jeff might not want to do that is concern that a significant number of players might decide to skip doing runs at GENCON in favor of doing lower priced runs at WYC or GHC, both saving them money and freeing up time at GENCON to do all the other stuff available there. I think that isn't likely to happen, but as the owner of True Dungeon Jeff might err on the side of caution.

Or if Jeff wants to increase participation/attendance at all events. So he increases the XP cap and allows separate XP to be earned at GenCon and/or WYC/GHC.

Which might increase attendance, or might alienate those that value XP and don't attend the alternate conventions.

I do still like the idea of a separate XP track for WYC/GHC.

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

balthasar wrote: You only score XP from your two best runs, as long as they are different dungeons. You can get that with two runs on HC/NM. A casual player can get 2k from two Normal runs, but won't score more than that without higher difficulties. I really hope we just extend the two run limit to all of the cons, with a max of 4k allowed per year.

That's my preferred solution as well. The only reason I can think of that Jeff might not want to do that is concern that a significant number of players might decide to skip doing runs at GENCON in favor of doing lower priced runs at WYC or GHC, both saving them money and freeing up time at GENCON to do all the other stuff available there. I think that isn't likely to happen, but as the owner of True Dungeon Jeff might err on the side of caution.

Or if Jeff wants to increase participation/attendance at all events. So he increases the XP cap and allows separate XP to be earned at GenCon and/or WYC/GHC.

Which might increase attendance, or might alienate those that value XP and don't attend the alternate conventions.

I do still like the idea of a separate XP track for WYC/GHC.

Yes, but in the past, Jeff has done stuff that might increase attendance/interest or might alienate certain groups.

The Wertz treasure box is the prime example. Charm of Avarice is another. General power creep is another. The crazy amount of goods available at the GT runs is another.

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

balthasar wrote: You only score XP from your two best runs, as long as they are different dungeons. You can get that with two runs on HC/NM. A casual player can get 2k from two Normal runs, but won't score more than that without higher difficulties. I really hope we just extend the two run limit to all of the cons, with a max of 4k allowed per year.

That's my preferred solution as well. The only reason I can think of that Jeff might not want to do that is concern that a significant number of players might decide to skip doing runs at GENCON in favor of doing lower priced runs at WYC or GHC, both saving them money and freeing up time at GENCON to do all the other stuff available there. I think that isn't likely to happen, but as the owner of True Dungeon Jeff might err on the side of caution.

Or if Jeff wants to increase participation/attendance at all events. So he increases the XP cap and allows separate XP to be earned at GenCon and/or WYC/GHC.

Which might increase attendance, or might alienate those that value XP and don't attend the alternate conventions.

I do still like the idea of a separate XP track for WYC/GHC.

Yes, but in the past, Jeff has done stuff that might increase attendance/interest or might alienate certain groups.

The Wertz treasure box is the prime example. Charm of Avarice is another. General power creep is another. The crazy amount of goods available at the GT runs is another.

There are lots of interesting ideas on the thread for Jeff to consider as he decides what to do with XP at WYC and GHC. As is often the case, it's unlikely he'll be able to find a solution that will please everyone.

I do still like the idea of a separate XP track for WYC/GHC.

So would seperate track xp still add to your overall xp when determining player level (aka what free stuff you get sent) Or would it be a totally seperate number with totally seperate rewards?

If its totally seperate, what do you think the new level perks should be?

If its seperate, could you see players complaining 'man I only needed 1k xp to level and get my whatever, now theyre telling me this xp I got is different xp, thats bs' and how would you address the issue.

Alternatively

If it all adds to one number for the purposes of getting player level/free stuff are you just asking for another webpage that tracks 'top WYC/GHC xp' or more functionally some set permutations where a player could see their name on the list?

What about top players just WYC or top players true heros etc. Could some drop downs more or less achive the same effect?

I really don't like the idea of completely separate tracks. I think logistically it gets very complicated and ultimately won't be understood by players who don't frequent the forum. Plus, who's to say that in the future TD wouldn't try other locations? Then we end up with constantly adding and changing tracks. I just cringe thinking about it. However, if there were dropdown boxes that allowed you to sort/filter players by cons or other criteria, that might be kind of fun, but I still think rewards should be tied to one overall experience total.

bpsymington wrote: It seems to me that the best way to make the most people happy, or at least satisfied, is the annual 4K cap, achievable regardless of which con you attend, as long as you are not repeating a dungeon.

Agree with Brian 100% on this for a number of reasons... not the least of which is his years and years of experience both as player and volunteer...

As a side note - as someone who has completed multiple courses in stats - in both college and as a professional... I both use AND mistrust statistics. The numbers garnered fro the survey, and the interpretation that Matt is offering are fairly solid basic stats. They do, however, fail to completely address the added uncertainty when a sample is not necessarily a true random sample... and I can tell you from multiple experiences... that is your sample is both small (this one is) and not a truly random sampling of the full population... (a very likely supposition) then it is very possible that what the data is telling us is skewed substantially - even for the stats that look like slam dunks. (NOTE: not arguing the calculated margin of error OR the statistical significance... just saying that a skewed, small, sample group of a much larger population is a very risky thing to make decisions on that affect that much larger population.

As to the fact that forumites are a significant voice and composed largely of very dedicated TD players and volunteers... There is truth in that - but still - we must acknowledge that our views and concerns can be vastly different from the general population of TD player...

This has been a great discussion by the way!