TOPIC: Is Another's Treasure: $95 PYP + $90/ea on 10+.

I love TD but beta testing and play balance have never been strong points here.

I'd love to see them.

Garrison wrote: One option to minimize power creep may be to have different Eldrich combinations work differently.

For example, we know what the Ring/Rod combo will do...and it will only benefit the Ranger and Druid. Perhaps the Ring/Boots combination will only work for two other classes, and the Rod/Boots for still different classes?

Meh. Likely too difficult to bother with.

The +1 Level portion only benefits the Druid & Ranger, but in my opinion those aren't nearly as powerful as the other benefits (bypassing spell resistance & Magic resistance for spells and adding +10 to healing spells). Those benefit the Wizard and Cleric at least as much as they do the Druid.

For the 3 item set bonus, Jeff hinted earlier that it would be something "transformative", which could hint at polymorphing, or maybe something else entirely. And of course Jeff might have done a 180 degree change on that bonus by now since nothing has been locked down.

Disbeeleaf wrote: I love TD but beta testing and play balance have never been strong points here.

I'd love to see them.

A great game, like Magic: the Gathering, is tested extensively. Magic is tested two years in advance. Dungeons and Dragons material is play tested before printed (though 4th edition is a mess.) Testing a game helps toward the longevity and sustainability of a system. I thought Jeff would put more effort into his multi-million dollar empire! Wow.

Some play testing is necessary, but too much testing and too balanced of a game makes for dull play.

I think most people familiar with their systems would agree that both Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons have become much more balanced over the years. Unfortunately, in my opinion, they have also both become quite boring.

I think our yearly cycle of debate on the beta item lists is about as close to testing as it's possible to get in a game like TD. Also keep in mind MTG is a different animal since Jeff always retains a level of control through the environment that wizards simply can't. Honestly I don't think I would like it if Jeff switched to years in advance beta testing like magic has. They miss things frequently (goyfs bob etc) and developing two years out often causes them to be unaware of important metashifts that can take place after testing is over. IMO community discussion of possible designs is a better way as long as you can get away with it. Many hands make light work after all.

Maybe we are working on different definitions of play testing. In my understanding, play testing is conducted to ensure that when the paying customers encounter the situation, it will be unpredicted, enjoyable and challenging, such that as a puzzle it will not be a cakewalk or unsolvable and as a combat it will not be an unavoidable slaughter one way or the other. I have to disagree with the point that play testing makes a game boring. Play testing ensures that the game will not be a boring walk through the park, or a frustrating failure. An example from TD in which play testing would have been helpful is the Smoak Year 1 encounter.

As a DM in the past, I have seen that certain groups will fail a room even if most groups succeed, and that is statistically acceptable. Problems come in when most groups fail a room, or anyone can solve a puzzle as soon as they see it. The goal is to work out the bugs before the customers encounter them, so the situation is challenging and thought provoking, but achievable by most.

With respect to D&D being boring, I first played D&D around 1975. I can still enjoy a good game of D&D. Certainly many permutations of D&D would seem dull and repetitive now, but with a good DM, I can still have a great time. The experience is entirely 100% based on the quality of the DM in D&D. In the case of TD for me the experience is driven by the degree of immersiveness of a room or a dungeon. The more I feel like I am really in it, the more enjoyable and memorable the experience becomes. It has a lot more to do with the creativity of the dungeon than whether I am playing with my 10 pack or a box of relics and legendaries.

I think games like TD can only become boring when the same encounters and scenarios reappear time after time, maybe in slightly different skins, and those players that have seen them before are able to predict the upcoming actions and events. Hence, my harping on the need for maximal creativity in the dungeons.

Garrison wrote: Some play testing is necessary, but too much testing and too balanced of a game makes for dull play.

I think most people familiar with their systems would agree that both Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons have become much more balanced over the years. Unfortunately, in my opinion, they have also both become quite boring.

My friends and I have been playing Magic since the start, and we're enjoying it as much or more now than ever before. It is great that with each new block it kind of reinvents itself so it always feels fresh. This next block, which leans heavily on Greek myths and the Gods, sounds like a blast!

While we don't roleplay often anymore, a roleplaying game is so flexible it still seems exciting and fun. Although I'll admit, I've always preferred the GURPS system to D&D. I like how GURPS lets everyone start with the same amount of points in character generation, as opposed to the randomness of D&D character generation.

Mike Steele wrote:

Garrison wrote: Some play testing is necessary, but too much testing and too balanced of a game makes for dull play.

I think most people familiar with their systems would agree that both Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons have become much more balanced over the years. Unfortunately, in my opinion, they have also both become quite boring.

My friends and I have been playing Magic since the start, and we're enjoying it as much or more now than ever before. It is great that with each new block it kind of reinvents itself so it always feels fresh. This next block, which leans heavily on Greek myths and the Gods, sounds like a blast!

Mike, you will love the new set. If you haven't checked out the spoilers, you will find a a ton of flavorful and fun cards.... check out 100 Handed Giant, lol.

While we don't roleplay often anymore, a roleplaying game is so flexible it still seems exciting and fun. Although I'll admit, I've always preferred the GURPS system to D&D. I like how GURPS lets everyone start with the same amount of points in character generation, as opposed to the randomness of D&D character generation.

Disbeeleaf wrote: Maybe we are working on different definitions of play testing.

Ya, I think I got off page, happens when I post at 3am after working in the sun all day XD

Anyway I agree with everything you said with respect to betting the hell out of the Dungeon rooms. I was rambling about beta testing tokens with respect to the upcoming expansions to the eldritched set.

Garrison wrote: Some play testing is necessary, but too much testing and too balanced of a game makes for dull play.

I think most people familiar with their systems would agree that both Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons have become much more balanced over the years. Unfortunately, in my opinion, they have also both become quite boring.

I don't agree with boring as an accurate adjective. Boring seems too strong of a description. Magic and D&D may have become "formulated" and predictable. Cards like Black Lotus and 40th level characters break the system. I still argue balance is critical to a game's sustainability. Some fun with restraint on power is crucial.

Disbeeleaf wrote: I have to disagree with the point that play testing makes a game boring.

I did not mean to say that play testing itself makes a game boring. Rather, I believe too much play testing or obsessing over game balance tends to make things too predictable, and hence boring.

Disbeeleaf wrote: With respect to D&D being boring, I first played D&D around 1975. I can still enjoy a good game of D&D. Certainly many permutations of D&D would seem dull and repetitive now, but with a good DM, I can still have a great time.

I very much agree. I still play D&D frequently and if anything, I'm having more fun with it than I did in decades past. The DM and other players are definitely what makes the fun in D&D. But judging simply based on the rules themselves, I find the more time passes the more dull the rulebooks get. (There are certainly some exceptions though; for example, 3rd edition's DMG2 was a gem. And, from what I've seen thus far 5th edition is looking very intriguing.)

I don't think play testing is a bad thing, and due to the flexible nature of True Dungeon I agree that having Jeff crowdsource ideas makes for a fine "play test". I'm just cautioning against over-testing. Some things need to be a bit unpredictable and slightly off balance, to add spice!

Dennis Burdick wrote: I don't agree with boring as an accurate adjective. Magic and D&D may have become "formulated "Liar and predictable. Cards like Black Lotus and 40th level characters break the system. I still argue balance is critical to a games sustainability. Some fun with restraint on power is crucial.

I agree restraint on power is important. Except you must be careful not to reach a point where a game is SO balanced, SO formulated, that everything is predictable. For me, that's boring.

I suppose Magic had to become the repetitive machine that it is today due to the competitive sport it has become. I personally think that's sad. Although I can still enjoy the game with a small group of friends who still know how to play games for enjoyment, I simply cannot stand going to the local game store to play, much less any tournament. Every time a new expansion set comes out, some guy on the internet calculates the top 5 or 6 best combo decks possible with the current batch of legal cards. The result is that nearly everyone is playing one of those handfuls of decks, and if you try to play anything creative, fun, or original you get your ass handed to you and receive admonitions from other players that you should really check out the internet and build a "winning" (i.e., mindless) deck. No thanks.

I think things like Black Lotus and 40th level characters will always happen. No amount of play testing will always prevent every whoopsie-daisy. But then the game can take that error into account, and change. (Unfortunately, to not step on the toes of token collectors True Dungeon often can't change that much in certain areas. Can you imagine the uproar if you could only use tokens from the last couple of sets, like Magic? Ha!)