TOPIC: Transmute Recipes -- Part Two

in 2013. There was a lot of mystic silk. Those were used in the cloak. People were not happy. but it balanced out

in 2014 additional URs were used in the legendaries. again, not happy costs more(plus there were 5 legendaries)

i believe in 2014 Arg went up for those as well. That was before there were more opportunities to attend more cons(yes I know people cant go to everyone)

So it was bound to happen. it is bound to happen again.

so adding a 20-50$ fleece is way better than adding a few 90-110$ URs. so this one wasn't as bad.

Some things I like about the new recipes:

I like that the below-UR transmutes require monster ingredient tokens instead of giving the option of monster ingredient tokens or GP.

I like that at least one of the recipes gave the option of using 2019 monster bits as well as 2018 monster bits. Maybe more of them should give that option, since the transmutes can be made for two years.

I like that the Bead Recipe is as expected, without any additional things added in (like Golden Fleece).

I like that the Bead Recipe is still referred to as "4C", from the old Combo token days.

I like the current Charm of Treasure Boosting and Enchanter's Wetstone recipes, I think they are scaled appropriately to their power.

I like that there will be six different monster ingredient tokens instead of four. It makes sense since we are going to three unique new Dungeons per year, and also to help burn through monster ingredient tokens.

I like that Jeff is going to announce the recipes for future multi-year UR transmutes at the start of the process, so people wanting to transmute them know exactly what they'll need. I'd recommend the same be done at the start of a story arc / 4C token cycle (next year), and I'd recommend that the recipe for the Tooth of Cavadar be announced now as well.

Constructive Changes I would Recommend:

Most importantly, the Kilt shouldn't have a Golden Fleece requirement. I think monster token / Golden Fleece increases on the other recipes are fair game, but I think the Kilt and Bead should have recipes that are consistent with the recipes of past Eldritch recipes and 4C recipes respectively. People have been preparing to make these transmutes for years assuming the recipes would be consistent with past similar recipes, and I think in good faith they should be. It's fine increasing the recipes for future similar tokens going forward, if the changes in recipes are announced at the start. It must be possible to get the required amount of additional Golden Fleece in recipes without adding one to the Kilt.

Maybe add a monster ingredient or two, from 2018 or 2019, to Canteen of Quaffing.

Belt of Ogre Mage Power: I think this recipe should be made more expensive, since this is a direct equivalent to the UR Girdle of Hill Giant Strength. Maybe require 3 or 4 monster ingredient tokens instead of just one.

Maybe make the alternate Widseth recipe closer to the alternate CoA Recipe. Have it require one each of the four UR instruments plus trade tokens and GP. Given the secondary market prices for some of those URs, that seems pretty balanced.

Transmuted Tokens I'll probably get:

I'll transmute a bunch of the Beads and Kilts, as I've been preparing for years to do multiples of both. I'll be doing a lot less than planned though if the Kilt keeps the Golden Fleece requirement.

I might do some Canteens of quaffing for my group. Currently the only Figurines of Power our group is using are Phoenix, but since we won't have to show these to the DM (letting me put them in the binders instead of carrying them in the token wallets to show DMs), I think it's a good option for us.

I would probably have transmuted a few Charm of Treasure Boosting tokens, but I doubt I'll have any monster ingredient tokens left over for that.

I might transmute one Shaman Relic for myself, or I might just stick to the UR Belt. I don't think I'll be transmuting any of the other Relic or Legendary tokens.

Regarding having Golden Fleece for sale in my shop, I do have three and I'd thought I did have them listed, but see that I didn't (I think my Trade Item section is in need of update). I'm glad now that they weren't listed though, as I'll be using them for my own transmuting. I'll probably suspend selling any monster ingredient tokens as well until I see how these recipes end up.

I'm still feeling like the Treasure charm transmute is a bit too high. I view the stackable +1 at basically half a PYP in value so about $50 ish lets say. Looking around quickly, the most recent monster bits appear to be sitting around $10, and thats only going to go up with the Bead this year and the new golden fleeces needed. So just the monster bits puts us at $50 ish then there are the other trade goods on top of that. Maybe drop it by at least 1 monster bit? (I picked a bad year to miss TD )

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: so adding a 20-50$ fleece is way better than adding a few 90-110$ URs. so this one wasn't as bad.

The problem is that adding fleece to a recipe in order to get Fleece out of the market means you aren't adding a $20-$50 Fleece. It means that you're likely adding a $70+ Fleece, and increasing the cost of any Fleece already in the recipe as well.

Also, man I wish I'd have caught Fleece going for $20. $40 is the lowest I caught them at.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: in 2013. There was a lot of mystic silk. Those were used in the cloak. People were not happy. but it balanced out

in 2014 additional URs were used in the legendaries. again, not happy costs more(plus there were 5 legendaries)

i believe in 2014 Arg went up for those as well. That was before there were more opportunities to attend more cons(yes I know people cant go to everyone)

So it was bound to happen. it is bound to happen again.

so adding a 20-50$ fleece is way better than adding a few 90-110$ URs. so this one wasn't as bad.

If you are selling at $20, I will take four please.

Jeff Martin wrote:
Enchanter's Whetstone (****)

• +1 Keen Bolt
• 1× Aragonite
• 1× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Elven Bismuth
• 500 GP equivalent
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger

This seems high for the intended audience. Requiring an aragonite would require a player to open 100 packs (on average), and melt down all the aragonite rares. To keep some equipment to actually use, they'll need to open more packs. Rounding up to 120 packs, and all of a sudden that's a 1k order. Why make this when someone can just pyp a single 250 pack for their UR weapon.

For the argument that it's targeted to the players that have been playing multiple years, this is still a ridiculous amount of packs to open. Say we have a player who attends gencon and they do 5 runs. They would need 24 years to have enough rares to make an aragonite!

If the goal is to increase investment from the casual player, switch out the aragonite for some Dwarven Steel or Elven Bismuth or oil of enchantment.

Lordoftherealm wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: in 2013. There was a lot of mystic silk. Those were used in the cloak. People were not happy. but it balanced out

in 2014 additional URs were used in the legendaries. again, not happy costs more(plus there were 5 legendaries)

i believe in 2014 Arg went up for those as well. That was before there were more opportunities to attend more cons(yes I know people cant go to everyone)

So it was bound to happen. it is bound to happen again.

so adding a 20-50$ fleece is way better than adding a few 90-110$ URs. so this one wasn't as bad.

If you are selling at $20, I will take four please.

i never said I was selling anything. that is what I had seen them on ebay at. i give a range

Rob F wrote: If you want more Fleece....then play more TD. If not, then buy them on the cheap (they are cheap now IMO) from the secondary market.

I know Rob doesn't mean it this way but I really don't like it. Prices were UP a huge amount this year. To just play more is not something everyone can do. To go to more cons is just not something everyone can do. To have to money or extra tokens to trade is not something everyone can do. To set the price of transmutes so you have to play more, buy more, trade or go to more cons is going to alienate the vast majority of the players. And though those players make not make up very much of the token buying market. They do make up the vast majority of the ticket market. Tokens purchase make the game better. Ticket sales make the game happen. I hope we don't forget that and drive out 90% of players who don't visit the forums and are not big token buyers, but still contribute very much to this game that we all love.

Matt Goodman wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:
Enchanter's Whetstone (****)

• +1 Keen Bolt
• 1× Aragonite
• 1× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Elven Bismuth
• 500 GP equivalent
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger

This seems high for the intended audience. Requiring an aragonite would require a player to open 100 packs (on average), and melt down all the aragonite rares. To keep some equipment to actually use, they'll need to open more packs. Rounding up to 120 packs, and all of a sudden that's a 1k order. Why make this when someone can just pyp a single 250 pack for their UR weapon.

For the argument that it's targeted to the players that have been playing multiple years, this is still a ridiculous amount of packs to open. Say we have a player who attends gencon and they do 5 runs. They would need 24 years to have enough rares to make an aragonite!

If the goal is to increase investment from the casual player, switch out the aragonite for some Dwarven Steel or Elven Bismuth or oil of enchantment.

I've got friends who have been playing for ~4-5 years, and they've got quite a few rare weapons.
They didn't get them from opening 100 packs...
They came (mostly) from treasure draws at the end of the adventure.. where rares are much more common (pardon the pun).

If you've been playing 2 runs/year for 5 years, you've got 10 of yourstarter packs, and ~30 treasure box draws, which should net you a healthy number of rare weapons & armour. Maybe not quite enough for an Aragonite, but that's where the chase comes in.

I will say I was surprised the Whetstone cost an Aragonite. I was figuring it would include Elven Bismuth along with some other pieces (Dwarven Steel and Enchanters Munition make sense to me) - but the Aragonite seems pricey for those that would most likely use it.

I might still make one to loan out to friends - but definitely not making multiples like I was considering when I first saw the token.

As for the recipes requiring so much Fleece I don't have a problem with it as much as even my casual playing friends seem to be swimming in it after the last couple GenCons.

Cary Kelly wrote: I will say I was surprised the Whetstone cost an Aragonite. I was figuring it would include Elven Bismuth along with some other pieces (Dwarven Steel and Enchanters Munition make sense to me) - but the Aragonite seems pricey for those that would most likely use it.

I might still make one to loan out to friends - but definitely not making multiples like I was considering when I first saw the token.

As for the recipes requiring so much Fleece I don't have a problem with it as much as even my casual playing friends seem to be swimming in it after the last couple GenCons.

The trick with the whetstone is that it basically makes your Rare weapon into a UR weapon (or at least pretty close). So the cost needs to be less than the cost of just getting a UR weapon, but not significantly less.

Cary Kelly wrote: I will say I was surprised the Whetstone cost an Aragonite. I was figuring it would include Elven Bismuth along with some other pieces (Dwarven Steel and Enchanters Munition make sense to me) - but the Aragonite seems pricey for those that would most likely use it.

I might still make one to loan out to friends - but definitely not making multiples like I was considering when I first saw the token.

As for the recipes requiring so much Fleece I don't have a problem with it as much as even my casual playing friends seem to be swimming in it after the last couple GenCons.

I seriously don't get the freakout over Golden Fleece either, I did not think it was a big deal at all. Monster Bits have been plentiful, you know what is not plentiful and more expensive? Gold.

The GP requirements are the hardest part of any Transmute above 5k. You need 40k in GP to make a Legendary, everything else is a cake walk. 1k in GP is about $17-$18 right now. Do the math, it's often cheaper to buy the item than make it which defeats the purpose. I think that should be looked at first.

Aragonite really does seem steep for the Whetstone. This is another case it will be cheaper to buy than make for players.