TOPIC: Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes

Kilt requiring two fleece is kind of bullshit in my opinion. Going from 0 -> 2 is not great.

Matthew Hayward wrote: You’ve had a token store longer than me.

Do you never sell anything you pull in that store?

I find your attitude perplexing.

What, that I’d argue against my own self-interest in the interest of the majority of players? Yeah, I can’t explain it.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Last tear was the first year of relics requiring fleece. Going to a 2nd fleece in one year does seem excessive.

Last year was the first year of legendaries requiring 2 fleece. Going to 3 one year later does seem to be a bit too much.

Maybe next year we go up?

So now that I see Wade's explanation laid out, I can at least try to comprehend the Relic and Legendary reasoning.

They have to set a precedent this year for the next 7 legendaries.

Still...I think it should be 1 & 2 (not 2 & 3).

Monster bits are going to be precious for the story arc. They are going to be precious for the kilts. At 1 & 2, they will get gobbled up for relics and legendaries.

When that finishes, appropriate measures can be drawn up for making sure they have purpose.

And I definitely agree with Brad. A rising tide lifts all boats. If you have more TD converts getting excited for the game and transmuting, that will help TD's longevity.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: What are we supposed to do with all of these completion tokens? There are way too many now and nothing in the recipe requires them. Was that a purposeful oversight?

It would be nice to have them count towards gp for transmutes.

if you look at the top of the completion token, it says what it can be counted towards

My line of thought is a Ring of Heroism type of recipe. It's been a while.

Completions should be more special than just standard goods. Gold is special. Yes, precious.

How about instead of x2 Golden Fleece requirements its a x5-6 Completion Token and x1 Golden Fleece as a Recipe #2 alternative?

Arnold wrote: And I definitely agree with Brad. A rising tide lifts all boats. If you have more TD converts getting excited for the game and transmuting, that will help TD's longevity.

Thanks

We’ve also seem to forgotten that up until last year, low-level transmutes included bits as an option. Last year (and this) they are a requirement. You don’t have to go nuts soaking up Fleece. If we keep soaking up bits, the Fleece will take care of themselves.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote: I'm against any relics needing any Golden Fleece, and any legendaries needing two or more need some serious justification other than "more pulls at the box means more fleece!", especially in a year where there is a recipe requiring 18 monster bits and another recipe requiring 4 bits.

I didn't like it last year, and I doubly don't like it this year.

I blame the maybe half-dozen people complaining about having too many monster bits and lamenting that they couldn't sell them for prices as high as they used to.

Price of Golden Fleece has gone from 80+ to under 40 in about a year, and stayed there.

Monster bits are a substantial value component of each treasure pull.

As a result the value of treasure pulls has dropped substantially, which hurts everyone who pulls treasure.

And yet the price to attend a con and the price to play TD has gone up.

I don't see more bits being available as a valid argument to increase fleece requirements in recipes when the price to gain them in the first place goes up each year.

Relics should not have fleece, legendaries should have 1, and any more than that needs to be debated on a per-recipe basis that is based on the power of the token and not on current speculation of fleece pricing. I understood the reasons for the hammers last year. I didn't agree with it, but I understood it.

This batch of recipes is ridiculous in its bits and fleece requirements, and I'm going to say so.

I think you've got this exactly backwards.

Your cost to run TD is:

Cost = Ticket price - value of treasure pulls - value of completion tokens.

If the value of treasure pull declines, the cost increases.

The value of treasure pulls has been declining due to the booming supply of monster bits (AoTF in 2015, CoA in 2015, ISSN in 2017, Going from 1 con to 4 in the last few years), and pretty much nothing to increase demand for monster bits.

I agree it may be an overcorrection, but it is a step in the right direction, if a step too far.

Wrong.

My cost to play TD is:

Cost = Tokens purchased prior to event + Travel to con + Lodging + Food during con + Parking + Con badge + Ticket price.

The value of any given treasure pull is based on the token actually pulled, and while an average can be determined from previous years' data, that is only speculation based on a bubble economy, and no set value can be absolutely determined for any given pull due to the randomness of the box and fluctuations in the market.

I can also tell you that most of the costs I list have gone up every year, reliably and without fail.

If you think a handful of tokens will somehow affect this cost in any appreciable fashion, then you either put way too much value on treasure pulls or are able to pull thousands of them over the course of a con. Neither of which helps your cause here.

Increasing fleece requirements in recipes is not the way to go here, and I'm pushing back against this trend. If you want to see more transmute engagement, you have to keep the recipe requirements at a level that requires a reasonable number of plays expected of someone with no treasure enhancers.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: If you're worried about the value of your treasure pull, sell your gold treasure chips. Don't complain about an increased supply of bits.

AFAIK, the value of the pulls themselves has never dropped. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, I do both (sell my treasure pulls and express concern about the health of the secondary economy vis a vis monster bit supply outstripping demand).

The value of the pulls has dropped, as measured by eBay sales price in the period after the bonus tokens get sent out but before Gen Conn.

In 2017 they were going for $6+ and sometimes as high as $10 each. In 2018 they went for $4-5 per pull before Gen Con.

I myself have stopped caring about treasure pulls very much, I gave away probably 2/3rds of my pulls to new players in the storyscape or check in area this year.

But I'm not worried about the value of treasure pulls because I care about the money, I'm worried about it because I think it's bad for players in general.

Isn't $4-5 the stable price of a pull? $6+ seems more of a construct of lack of initial supply.

AFAIR, 2017 pulls were still selling for $4-5 going into Origins.


I don't think more bits is bad for the players. I think it's bad for farmers. To be clear, I am not accusing you of being a farmer.

We'll never know what it means to be an "average" player for this game. I only know what I do.

I attend Gen Con each year, and I run each adventure once. I'm nearly maxed out on treasure, only missing the extra pull from level 6 xp. This year, I got (16 * 3) + 3 pulls. The 3 extra are thanks to the sealed run.

51 pulls, and the box was rewarding roughly 20% treasure this year. I think 20% is generous for our calculations so let's go with that. That means I'd have pulled 10 bits.

4 of those are automatically accounted for due to the story arc. That leaves me with about 6 bits each year. If we stretch these numbers out over 3 years, that means I'd have 18 bits to spare. That means I don't have enough to even transmute the Kilt. It also assumes that I didn't want to transmute any Enhanced or Exalted tokens in that 3 year span.

Oh, and this year there are 6 bits for the arc, so I have to make up for that as well.

I don't think my experience is an unrealistic one. A player who's invested in a CoA & ISSN and runs every adventure should be able to make the Kilt without having to go on the secondary market to buy more fleece. There are plenty of players who are chasing this year's eldritch and don't have max treasure.

Not to mention if I want to make a relic, and eventually a legendary- I'm looking for even more fleece.

I don't think the player base at large has this issue of monster bits spilling out of their coffers. It's folks who run more than 3 or 4 dungeons a year and travel to multiple cons to run even more.

Wow those Golden Fleece amounts are ridiculous! Especially when this year we have both an Eldritch and end of arc recipe.

All the fleece requirements should drop by one and the Eldritch really shouldn't require one to begin with.

I agree with many others that the amount of silk required and alchemist items seem high.

I would have expected the bard recipes to require more darkwood plank since that is what lutes break down to.

I would have also expected the rogues recipes to require more philosopher stones since that is what necklaces break down to.

One thing I really like is the alternative recipe for the bard legendary. (With a reduced GF requirement.)

jedibcg wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Harlax wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Fiddy wrote: And I suspect that if these recipes stay as they are that we'll see some monster bit prices adjust above what happened in 2015/2016.

I don't know what will happen with the recipes but can you elaborate on what happened in the 2015/16 year?

Ed

I believe he was refering to Icecrag Hero Earcuff. There was a scramble for the 2013 bits that made up the transmute. I traded two sets of 2015 bits for one of 2013 and was very pleased with the deal. Others paid far more.

That was because of Wertz, of course. Not many drew from the boxes with bits, so there was an artificial spike in 2013s. The highest I remember was $25 each.

I think that one in particular that some folks were short were going closer to 50.

For those that what the Monster Bits conversation here is the thread.

I have not yet re-read it so I don't know who said what, including myself. I should be a fun re-read though.

www.truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=244842&limitstart=0

quoting myself. read the entire article. i now blame Matthew for the increase...lol. Ohhh and Mike and Chad to lesser degree.

Arnold wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: If you're worried about the value of your treasure pull, sell your gold treasure chips. Don't complain about an increased supply of bits.

AFAIK, the value of the pulls themselves has never dropped. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, I do both (sell my treasure pulls and express concern about the health of the secondary economy vis a vis monster bit supply outstripping demand).

The value of the pulls has dropped, as measured by eBay sales price in the period after the bonus tokens get sent out but before Gen Conn.

In 2017 they were going for $6+ and sometimes as high as $10 each. In 2018 they went for $4-5 per pull before Gen Con.

I myself have stopped caring about treasure pulls very much, I gave away probably 2/3rds of my pulls to new players in the storyscape or check in area this year.

But I'm not worried about the value of treasure pulls because I care about the money, I'm worried about it because I think it's bad for players in general.

Isn't $4-5 the stable price of a pull? $6+ seems more of a construct of lack of initial supply.

AFAIR, 2017 pulls were still selling for $4-5 going into Origins.


I don't think more bits is bad for the players. I think it's bad for farmers. To be clear, I am not accusing you of being a farmer.

We'll never know what it means to be an "average" player for this game. I only know what I do.

I attend Gen Con each year, and I run each adventure once. I'm nearly maxed out on treasure, only missing the extra pull from level 6 xp. This year, I got (16 * 3) + 3 pulls. The 3 extra are thanks to the sealed run.

51 pulls, and the box was rewarding roughly 20% treasure this year. I think 20% is generous for our calculations so let's go with that. That means I'd have pulled 10 bits.

4 of those are automatically accounted for due to the story arc. That leaves me with about 6 bits each year. If we stretch these numbers out over 3 years, that means I'd have 18 bits to spare. That means I don't have enough to even transmute the Kilt. It also assumes that I didn't want to transmute any Enhanced or Exalted tokens in that 3 year span.

Oh, and this year there are 6 bits for the arc, so I have to make up for that as well.

I don't think my experience is an unrealistic one. A player who's invested in a CoA & ISSN and runs every adventure should be able to make the Kilt without having to go on the secondary market to buy more fleece. There are plenty of players who are chasing this year's eldritch and don't have max treasure.

Not to mention if I want to make a relic, and eventually a legendary- I'm looking for even more fleece.

I don't think the player base at large has this issue of monster bits spilling out of their coffers. It's folks who run more than 3 or 4 dungeons a year and travel to multiple cons to run even more.

+1

And I'm someone that goes to Origins and Gen Con, but I can only afford to run 2 or 3 times at Gen Con, and maybe 4 or 5 times at Origins, been playing and saving since 2014, and am still very hard pressed to cover these recipe requirements for the three transmutes I would make.

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: If you're worried about the value of your treasure pull, sell your gold treasure chips. Don't complain about an increased supply of bits.

AFAIK, the value of the pulls themselves has never dropped. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, I do both (sell my treasure pulls and express concern about the health of the secondary economy vis a vis monster bit supply outstripping demand).

The value of the pulls has dropped, as measured by eBay sales price in the period after the bonus tokens get sent out but before Gen Conn.

In 2017 they were going for $6+ and sometimes as high as $10 each. In 2018 they went for $4-5 per pull before Gen Con.

I myself have stopped caring about treasure pulls very much, I gave away probably 2/3rds of my pulls to new players in the storyscape or check in area this year.

But I'm not worried about the value of treasure pulls because I care about the money, I'm worried about it because I think it's bad for players in general.

Isn't $4-5 the stable price of a pull? $6+ seems more of a construct of lack of initial supply.

AFAIR, 2017 pulls were still selling for $4-5 going into Origins.


I don't think more bits is bad for the players. I think it's bad for farmers. To be clear, I am not accusing you of being a farmer.

We'll never know what it means to be an "average" player for this game. I only know what I do.

I attend Gen Con each year, and I run each adventure once. I'm nearly maxed out on treasure, only missing the extra pull from level 6 xp. This year, I got (16 * 3) + 3 pulls. The 3 extra are thanks to the sealed run.

51 pulls, and the box was rewarding roughly 20% treasure this year. I think 20% is generous for our calculations so let's go with that. That means I'd have pulled 10 bits.

4 of those are automatically accounted for due to the story arc. That leaves me with about 6 bits each year. If we stretch these numbers out over 3 years, that means I'd have 18 bits to spare. That means I don't have enough to even transmute the Kilt. It also assumes that I didn't want to transmute any Enhanced or Exalted tokens in that 3 year span.

Oh, and this year there are 6 bits for the arc, so I have to make up for that as well.

I don't think my experience is an unrealistic one. A player who's invested in a CoA & ISSN and runs every adventure should be able to make the Kilt without having to go on the secondary market to buy more fleece. There are plenty of players who are chasing this year's eldritch and don't have max treasure.

Not to mention if I want to make a relic, and eventually a legendary- I'm looking for even more fleece.

I don't think the player base at large has this issue of monster bits spilling out of their coffers. It's folks who run more than 3 or 4 dungeons a year and travel to multiple cons to run even more.

+1

And I'm someone that goes to Origins and Gen Con, but I can only afford to run 2 or 3 times at Gen Con, and maybe 4 or 5 times at Origins, been playing and saving since 2014, and am still very hard pressed to cover these recipe requirements for the three transmutes I would make.

Apparently the preferred solution to your dilemma is to buy them at escalating prices from Ebay sellers

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: If you're worried about the value of your treasure pull, sell your gold treasure chips. Don't complain about an increased supply of bits.

AFAIK, the value of the pulls themselves has never dropped. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, I do both (sell my treasure pulls and express concern about the health of the secondary economy vis a vis monster bit supply outstripping demand).

The value of the pulls has dropped, as measured by eBay sales price in the period after the bonus tokens get sent out but before Gen Conn.

In 2017 they were going for $6+ and sometimes as high as $10 each. In 2018 they went for $4-5 per pull before Gen Con.

I myself have stopped caring about treasure pulls very much, I gave away probably 2/3rds of my pulls to new players in the storyscape or check in area this year.

But I'm not worried about the value of treasure pulls because I care about the money, I'm worried about it because I think it's bad for players in general.

Isn't $4-5 the stable price of a pull? $6+ seems more of a construct of lack of initial supply.

AFAIR, 2017 pulls were still selling for $4-5 going into Origins.


I don't think more bits is bad for the players. I think it's bad for farmers. To be clear, I am not accusing you of being a farmer.

We'll never know what it means to be an "average" player for this game. I only know what I do.

I attend Gen Con each year, and I run each adventure once. I'm nearly maxed out on treasure, only missing the extra pull from level 6 xp. This year, I got (16 * 3) + 3 pulls. The 3 extra are thanks to the sealed run.

51 pulls, and the box was rewarding roughly 20% treasure this year. I think 20% is generous for our calculations so let's go with that. That means I'd have pulled 10 bits.

4 of those are automatically accounted for due to the story arc. That leaves me with about 6 bits each year. If we stretch these numbers out over 3 years, that means I'd have 18 bits to spare. That means I don't have enough to even transmute the Kilt. It also assumes that I didn't want to transmute any Enhanced or Exalted tokens in that 3 year span.

Oh, and this year there are 6 bits for the arc, so I have to make up for that as well.

I don't think my experience is an unrealistic one. A player who's invested in a CoA & ISSN and runs every adventure should be able to make the Kilt without having to go on the secondary market to buy more fleece. There are plenty of players who are chasing this year's eldritch and don't have max treasure.

Not to mention if I want to make a relic, and eventually a legendary- I'm looking for even more fleece.

I don't think the player base at large has this issue of monster bits spilling out of their coffers. It's folks who run more than 3 or 4 dungeons a year and travel to multiple cons to run even more.

+1

And I'm someone that goes to Origins and Gen Con, but I can only afford to run 2 or 3 times at Gen Con, and maybe 4 or 5 times at Origins, been playing and saving since 2014, and am still very hard pressed to cover these recipe requirements for the three transmutes I would make.

Apparently the preferred solution to your dilemma is to buy them at escalating prices from Ebay sellers

Forget that noise. I'd be contacting Trent first if it came to that.