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TOPIC: Lute of Fury Discussion

Lute of Fury Discussion 5 years 7 months ago #25

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I just feel like the UR might not be good enough, particularly when compared with previous URs which allowed the Bard to do something other than just bardsong, and when compared with previous uncommons, one of which allowed +1 hit.

Maybe
UR +1/+2
Relic +1/+2 and can do anything
Legendary +2/+2, can do anything, save effect

Is that good enough for the Relic to Legendary bump? The re-roll for the party is VERY powerful.


I'd much rather leave the Relic and Legendary as is, and change the UR to +1 to hit and you can use weapons.

But, maybe there's a subset of Bards that really just want to sing and help buff the party, and aren't that into slides. This UR would fit that pretty well.


Any love for putting a damage wheel on the UR and leaving it as +1 / +1? That way it can be used for melee attacks to differentiate it more from Windseth's Mystical Lute than just +1 / +1 vs +0 / +2?


I like the idea. +1/+1 or +1/+0, and may attack with this in melee is a UR we dont have yet.
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Lute of Fury Discussion 5 years 7 months ago #26

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I just feel like the UR might not be good enough, particularly when compared with previous URs which allowed the Bard to do something other than just bardsong, and when compared with previous uncommons, one of which allowed +1 hit.

Maybe
UR +1/+2
Relic +1/+2 and can do anything
Legendary +2/+2, can do anything, save effect

Is that good enough for the Relic to Legendary bump? The re-roll for the party is VERY powerful.


That is a good question. Would it break the game if the Legendary was +2 / +3 so its better on the damage buff side than other lutes? Its likely to add 6 or 7 damage per round I think if it was +2 / +3...

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Lute of Fury Discussion 5 years 7 months ago #27

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arnold wrote:

valetutto wrote: This is a perfect example of the token creation process. It was designed nicely originally but there was an outcry of "OP" and in came the nerf bat. Now we're left with a less then popular UR. Its still going to get picked up but primary as a transmute.


What is sad is the argument that stuck was basically "bards are already OP don't make them even stronger!"
...sigh...

People are still complaining about the legendary.

I'm secretly hoping that Jeff "accidentally" sends the original graphics to the printer and restores this line of tokens to their former glory.

And for all those people still complaining about "power creep!" yeah its called class specific legendaries. Every class that gets one is going to get some power creep. I"m surprised that more people aren't complaining about the druid belt. I'd say the rogues are getting some creep as well but they are so far behind on the power curve I view this as more of an adjustment.



There was equal outcry about the druid necklace. I've been saying basically the same thing regarding class specific legendaries and power creep.

The UR belt got bumped down on its damage wheel but that was more than compensated for by making transforming a free action.

Hopefully enough relic lutes get made to free up the existing UR instruments. Not the solution we need, but it would at least avoid a zero sum situation.


The relic and legendary lute recipes will be very interesting to me.


I'll be interested particularly in the Legendary Lute, recipe, to see if it has an alternate recipe like the CoA had, trading in all the UR Lutes.

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Lute of Fury Discussion 5 years 7 months ago #28

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arnold wrote:

valetutto wrote: This is a perfect example of the token creation process. It was designed nicely originally but there was an outcry of "OP" and in came the nerf bat. Now we're left with a less then popular UR. Its still going to get picked up but primary as a transmute.


What is sad is the argument that stuck was basically "bards are already OP don't make them even stronger!"
...sigh...

People are still complaining about the legendary.

I'm secretly hoping that Jeff "accidentally" sends the original graphics to the printer and restores this line of tokens to their former glory.

And for all those people still complaining about "power creep!" yeah its called class specific legendaries. Every class that gets one is going to get some power creep. I"m surprised that more people aren't complaining about the druid belt. I'd say the rogues are getting some creep as well but they are so far behind on the power curve I view this as more of an adjustment.



There was equal outcry about the druid necklace. I've been saying basically the same thing regarding class specific legendaries and power creep.

The UR belt got bumped down on its damage wheel but that was more than compensated for by making transforming a free action.

Hopefully enough relic lutes get made to free up the existing UR instruments. Not the solution we need, but it would at least avoid a zero sum situation.


The relic and legendary lute recipes will be very interesting to me.


I'll be interested particularly in the Legendary Lute, recipe, to see if it has an alternate recipe like the CoA had, trading in all the UR Lutes.


My widseth's lute was the first UR I ever got and my first ever trade. Not sure if you remember mike but I traded with you to get it. I'd have a hard time parting with it.
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Last edit: by valetutto.

Lute of Fury Discussion 5 years 7 months ago #29

A Bard that is picking up the Lute of Fury for use needs to examine the group they usually play with. Bard class is the jack-of-all-trades class that helps the party out as a whole by doing a little of everything. So if the group thinks it would be far more beneficial to gain that +1 to attack in exchange for a +1 to damage, then the Bard should be open to carrying it in their repertoire.

My viewpoint is this token is meant to provide a way towards the relic, which is objectively a better instrument than the Lute of Fury. The legendary is even further above it.

In my mind, that makes the question of picking up the Lute of Fury as a must-have dependent upon the recipes of the relic and the legendary, and the consensus of the group with whom they are running.

Of course, the Bard is perfectly within their rights to decide if it fits their play style first and foremost. If the Bard doesn't like it or want to use it because they like sliding or slinging scrolls, then they aren't going to grab it.

I also don't like the idea of giving the Lute of Fury the ability to use it as a weapon in addition to the bonuses. It treads a bit much on the UR Widseth's, and if it serves as a functional reprint then why not just reprint Widseth's?

Adding the ability to do the Monster Lore check simultaneously... interesting, but it makes the Bardsong bonus math different from the rest of the UR instruments that the Bard is likely to switch to the second round, and thus changing the bonus on the DM, which I could see as being a bit frustrating having to shift the math around each time the Bard changes instruments. It's part of the design beauty of the Lyre of Lore in that the bonus doesn't change when the Bard switches to a UR. The relic and legendary keep things simple that way, as the Bard isn't likely to switch up instruments with them. That's clean from a design and play perspective, which I like a lot. However I haven't seen it clarified yet if the Bard can do a Monster Lore check with the relic and legendary, and if not then the Lyre of Lore will still prioritize over a legendary in the first round for me, making the bonus change something I feel is my responsibility to clearly communicate.

For me personally, the Lute of Fury feels like an uncommon in power. Hard to argue it as a rare to me. As a UR it's weird, and in the context of providing an ingredient to the relic and/or legendary it makes sense, yet there are other UR instruments that could have been reprinted to fill that purpose. That's what Jeff wants to do, though, so that's that as far as I'm concerned.

I thought for sure the instrument to use wands was going to be the next step, but Bards don't have many attractive options for wand usage at the moment, even with a Medallion of Mystic Mouth build. It doesn't have the punch of a solid Amorgen's scroll slinger build, nor the combat slider fun of a strength-based Widseth's build, so I can see that a wand instrument isn't something that is interesting enough to merit following through at this time. This set doesn't seem to be the right set to explore making a Bard wand user build worth it to me.

For my purposes, the Lute of Fury has a "wait and see" tag that will be decided once I see finalized recipes for the relic and the legendary. If it is a named token in the recipe, then I'll need one. If it is similar to the Redoubt recipes where any UR instrument will serve, then I won't be picking one up. I expect the relic recipe will name the Lute of Fury, though, and the legendary recipe will need the relic plus probably any one UR instrument.

If the legendary requires one of every UR instrument out there... That's a mixed bag of emotions for me. An alternative recipe like the CoA seems unlikely, but if Jeff likes that idea then fine. If it is the only recipe, then it makes it that much more difficult and expensive for new transmuting Bards to get to.
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Lute of Fury Discussion 5 years 7 months ago #30

Boilerplate wrote: This is all very interesting to me. Still eager for other thoughts, but it sounds like people might see the chief merits of the UR being as a transmute ingredient and as a limited use token for when the party is really struggling to hit. And people seem to dislike the absence of multitasking relative to other UR and rare instruments.

If that’s the case, would be nice if the UR lute could stand on its own as a token of comparable value and use to widseth, briano, and amorgen. Kinda sad to hear people say they are only interested in it for transmute purposes (and rather limited tactical situations).


Feels like the theme this year, not every UR is going to fantastic. This year though seems far more misses than hits aside from folks that plan on making the big stuff.

Looking over Jeff's post on the transmute recipes this is a year or a shift of if you want something double down and commit to it, not just picking up the 'best' all purpose or must have UR's/transmutes.

Hurting midrange stepping up to UR/staying at UR players this year.
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