TOPIC: 2019 Transmuted Token Images !!

Ya know with all the material supplied by the kilts, you could sew an actual set of pants for the eldritch.

Incognito wrote: IFor the Rogue Necklaces, I'm not a fan of the improved crit range, especially after those overpowered Bracers from last year.

I like the stats of the Relic & Legendary as they currently sit.

But when Incognito says he's not a fan, I'll sit up & listen.

Personally, of the 2 "new" Rogue perks in this year's set (the ability to Sneak Attack the same target again, and the Improved Crit range) I'm most excited about the 2nd Sneak attack.

I do also really like the Improved Crit range... but having seen in Grind how Improved Crit Ranges can be a game changer (Io's Bow, Slayer Sword, and now Thor's Hammer) I acknowledge that we should approach them with Caution.

Would it be better to cap the Relic & Legendary Rogue necklace at 19-20 ?
That way it doesn't add anything more than Thor's Hammer gives, but it's still usable with other cool weapons (Viper Fang, Nightshades Shortsword, etc)

Perhaps give the Legendary back it's 3rd Sneak attack option in exchange?

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote: I don't think Bead of the Lucky Traveler is a good idea. Bead is a new slot and most beads are rather cornercase. +2 saves + Free Movement sounds like best in slot for a long, long time.

I don't like how Jeff is finally giving in to all the complaining for permanent, potionless Polymorphing. I think it's a bad move in the long run because it obsolete Polymorph potions, which I regularly see people use. There should be a bigger cost (more restrictions and less damage) to the Relic and Legendary items. Also, I don't see why you can't let the Wizards use it too.

For the Rogue Necklaces, I'm not a fan of the improved crit range, especially after those overpowered Bracers from last year.

Also, the new instruments are problematic. First off, they complicate things for DM's, since +2/+4 is no longer the standard. Secondly, they obsolete existing and future instruments.

Re: the legendary bard instrument obsoleting the other ur instruments and also maybe a future “bardsong + wand” or “bardsong + consumable” instrument...

Yes but... isn’t that what legendaries do?

Didn’t Surtr’s obsolete all other str belts? (Other than set bonus ones).

Don’t +5 weapons obsolete everything other than +5 weapons (barring auto kill vs monsters)?

Eh. Most legendaries are specific in what they do.

Surtr's is great if you want + Str in you waist slot. But if you aren't melee attacking, there may be other options.

RoP or Bracers are great if you want AC. But not everyone does.

Cloak is great if you want + saves but not everyone prioritizes it.

Weapons and Focus items are a little more problematic. But a swiss army knife "one solution for everything" is problematic to me, especially for Bard instruments when right now you actually do see a variety of instruments used, which I think is a very good thing.

Sure, you see a variety of Bard instruments, because there's nowhere else to go right now except to carry around all the Bard instruments.

There's been no advancement options for Bards since the UR instruments showed up, leading to a variety of instruments being used.

So what does this legendary really do in game terms for the Bard that has all those instruments? One token instead of a bunch, sure, but what's the actual gain for gameplay?

An extra +2 to attacks and frees up the one free action a round from swapping instruments to doing something else for a change.

It doesn't let you Bardsong and use the Monster Lore check from what I can see, unless they're including it in the list.

It isn't a major shift in game balance at all when you look at it and place it in its proper context of high tier play.

As much as I want a legendary instrument, I feel a bit cheated by this implementation. I was expecting something really really cool beyond those features. Like, those features were always going to be the standard expectation of a relic, with the legendary doing the same and something else cool.

As is, these instruments are underwhelming, yet to be expected, and we still have people complaining they are too strong?

I'm sorry. I don't agree. This is the best we're going to get, and that's just how it is. Any other idea of what a legendary instrument should do will be shot to pieces. And Jeff has locked in with this.

At least now I have a legendary to work towards.

My understanding is that it allows Bardsong + any standard action + any free action.

This makes it more powerful than any other instrument as you can do bardsong plus: lore, attack, spell, scroll (all existing abilities) and also wand, potion, oil/salve, anything else requiring a standard (all new abilities), plus if ever a new type of standard action is introduced, you can do that too.

I think it also needs a good deal of clarification as to how it works with hand slot items.

For instance, is it:

Start with instrument in hand:
Standard: bardsong + attack
Free: must be expended to get weapons in hand
End with weapons in hand

Or is it:
Start with instrument in hand:
Standard: bardsong + attack without having to equip hand slots with weapons
Free: anything you want
End with instrument in hand, or something else if you used your free to swap

Token specific interactions:


Can you: perform bardsong, read two scrolls with lenses of sage speed, and end with instrument in hand.

Can you: perform bardsong, make a ranged attack with a two handed bow, switch into shield of the scholar, read a scroll with shield of the scholars ability, and end with instrument in hand?

Can you: perform bardsong, cast a spell from the card, shoot a wand with mystic mouth, and end with instrument in hand?

Raven wrote:

Incognito wrote: IFor the Rogue Necklaces, I'm not a fan of the improved crit range, especially after those overpowered Bracers from last year.

I like the stats of the Relic & Legendary as they currently sit.

But when Incognito says he's not a fan, I'll sit up & listen.

Personally, of the 2 "new" Rogue perks in this year's set (the ability to Sneak Attack the same target again, and the Improved Crit range) I'm most excited about the 2nd Sneak attack.

I do also really like the Improved Crit range... but having seen in Grind how Improved Crit Ranges can be a game changer (Io's Bow, Slayer Sword, and now Thor's Hammer) I acknowledge that we should approach them with Caution.

Would it be better to cap the Relic & Legendary Rogue necklace at 19-20 ?
That way it doesn't add anything more than Thor's Hammer gives, but it's still usable with other cool weapons (Viper Fang, Nightshades Shortsword, etc)

Perhaps give the Legendary back it's 3rd Sneak attack option in exchange?

The major difference is that Sneak's Improved Crit range only kicks in on SA (twice per room). Thor and most others are every slide.

That said, if the Legendary slipped back to 18-20, it might be better...

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Basically, it’s that “second free action” that Valettuto is always going on about

Exactly. I don't see why that's so bad.

That’s not at all clear - it looks like it could be “second unrestricted standard action plus unlimited free actions to fix your hands.”

But I think it needs some clarification.

Xavon wrote: The major difference is that Sneak's Improved Crit range only kicks in on SA (twice per room). Thor and most others are every slide.

Assuming for a moment that most combats go for 3 rounds max, then changing the Legendary to being able to sneak attack 3 times would be (effectively) the same as giving Improved Crit range to all your attacks.

That said, if the Legendary slipped back to 18-20, it might be better...

Doing a quick search on Token DataBase for Expanded Crit Range I see that there's only one other token which does 18-20 crit range, and that's Io's Bow. It had a pre-requisite (20 Dex) and was built especially so that its Crit range was a shining feature to compete with the Mighty weapons. And even with that, some folks considered it OP.

So yeah... No higher than 18-20.. and really, 19-20 is more in line with other power levels, especially for a token which has other great perks and no pre-requisite.

Imagine a MTG card for 3 mana - 3/3 shapeshifter (all creature types). WOTC announces they are offering an upgrade trade-in to get a 1 mana 2/3 druid...
"What? How can you upgrade to a worse card? It doesnt even have 3 power."
"Dude, it only costs one mana, this thing is great."
"And it doesnt die to that white spell that kills zombies any more."
"It isnt even an elf any more, i dont want it."
WOTC: "uh, ok, how about 2/3 elf druid."
"I guess thats okay."
"NO! My merfolk deck is still ruined. I will have to keep playing the old crappy version."
"You could always use one of those merfolk that can change creature types...?"
"RUINED!"

Mike Steele wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Those Eldritch bonuses depend of course on you having at least one other Eldritch Token. If this is your only one, you get none of those bonuses.

I think you missed the first sentence:

So I just wanted to "run the numbers" for Brad's case (wanting DEX).

Brad does have at least 1 other Eldritch item.

Ed

Good point. But the added Eldritch bonuses have been mentioned numerous times as to one reason why it's OK for the transmuted token to be weaker, and I wanted to point out that there will be a lot of people getting this that won't have a second Eldritch item and won't get any of those bonuses.

Agreed, think for a fair few folks this and possibly the bead be their 1st 'big' transmute for those of us who don't normally look at relic+ transmutes or the one transmute we've been saving/waiting for.

I don't see the value in the bard stuff as to me there's several good rare options that give choices now but i don't play bard enough to honestly judge that token.

I assumed the legendary lute was missing hands on purpose because it plays itself freeing the bard to do other things.

Hawk Fingle wrote: Sure, you see a variety of Bard instruments, because there's nowhere else to go right now except to carry around all the Bard instruments.

There's been no advancement options for Bards since the UR instruments showed up, leading to a variety of instruments being used.

So what does this legendary really do in game terms for the Bard that has all those instruments? One token instead of a bunch, sure, but what's the actual gain for gameplay?

An extra +2 to attacks and frees up the one free action a round from swapping instruments to doing something else for a change.

It doesn't let you Bardsong and use the Monster Lore check from what I can see, unless they're including it in the list.

It isn't a major shift in game balance at all when you look at it and place it in its proper context of high tier play.

As much as I want a legendary instrument, I feel a bit cheated by this implementation. I was expecting something really really cool beyond those features. Like, those features were always going to be the standard expectation of a relic, with the legendary doing the same and something else cool.

As is, these instruments are underwhelming, yet to be expected, and we still have people complaining they are too strong?

I'm sorry. I don't agree. This is the best we're going to get, and that's just how it is. Any other idea of what a legendary instrument should do will be shot to pieces. And Jeff has locked in with this.

At least now I have a legendary to work towards.

Yes, people complain because Bard Song continues to be one of the most (if not the most) powerful class abilities in the game.

Bard Song makes or breaks a lot of combats in TD. It's that good. Already.

Incognito wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote: At least now I have a legendary to work towards.

Yes, people complain because Bard Song continues to be one of the most (if not the most) powerful class abilities in the game.

Bard Song makes or breaks a lot of combats in TD. It's that good. Already.

I especially like it when a combat DM specifically points out that Bard Song got you there for a hit. It feels good and I hope it makes the Bard happy as well.

Wow. Closing in on 300 posts. Just want to slide one in to say that I'm really glad to see so many people weighing in on the Token development process. Gives me a sense of comfort knowing there are a lot of players out there who are very passionate about TD. Now on with the discussions...!!!