TOPIC: Another 2 Cents

My fiancé and I talked for a good long while over the weekend about our True Dungeon runs this year, mainly about our frustration how out of four different runs we failed to beat any of them (every other year we’ve run has at least been a 50-50 split between success and failure, which we were fine with). But we finally narrowed it down to the two things that really ruined it for us, and I think a lot of newbie players, this time around.

A maximum number of tries for treasure is a terrible idea, as it cause’s people to be fearful of trying ANYTHING, taking away the most useful puzzle solving tool of all; Trial and Error. And once the option of winning treasure is removed, the motivation to complete a room is remarkably reduced. It also opens the door to way too much ‘at the DM’s discretion’. Of the runs we did, this new change was also not communicated well, if at all. It also means that new players do not get the fun of getting that physical item that reflects ‘we did this. We over came this trial’, which is an important part of the experience I think; getting to take something with you other than just memories. (Also, we are completely against the rule of ‘no brute forcing your way through a puzzle’ when in 2014, one of the puzzles on the Airship was literally solved by brute force. There was no other way to go about it)

The next were the rooms that resulted in practically instant death (combats) or could wipe out the entire party for failing once (Underdark Puzzle) These were in our opinion not so much fun as just nerve wracking because you could literally watch the players frustration rise and see the point where it was no longer fun and people just wanted to be done. The difficulty felt remarkably cranked up for the Normal setting over previous years, which is really where our main complaint was as newbie players didn’t stand any chance at all (we ran with a veteran player once who said that the one combat was something he would expect to see in a Hardcore run, not normal with newbie players)

For example, in our Sable Gauntlet puzzle run my fiancé and I were the only two who had played. The run had (somehow) over sold so we had 11 people in the run, so 9 of them were new and had only the token pack you get when you sign in. By lending out tokens we were able to outfit the party quite strongly, so everyone thought that a normal would be a fine run, as they were worried non-lethal would be too easy.

Of the seven rooms, no puzzles were solved, and only the fight against the water snake was won. Two of our party died in the spider and grub room (the DM was very slow and out of twelve minutes the party only got one round of action) and then we lost six more in the room with the Drow. With only three people left, we failed the final room through time out.

When we exited all of the new players were very unhappy. They didn’t have fun, and were frustrated and disappointed. A number of them were complaining that they basically spent $52 dollars for a bag of plastic and a special ‘completion’ token, that they could have bought for a fraction of that in the dealers room if they had wanted, and not wasted the two hours. Most, if not all, said they didn’t plan to play again in the future. And the thing is, we kind of agreed with them at that point. It felt like we had accomplished nothing and spent half the run just wanting it to be over. When you leave a run breathing a sigh of relief that you can finally move on to something else, you know something has gone wrong with the formula.

I do want to say, we have never been about the treasure. For us, at this point, it is a nice bonus, a fun little end to the game, but since our very first run, we've loved the experience and the team work that comes from the game, and have just enjoyed having a good time more than anything. This year, all of the things we enjoy were lacking from the runs that we did, which made it much less enjoyable

This isn't to say that there weren't good points along the way (the NPCs this year were FANTASTIC! And we got the amazing Coach Don, who I believe is spoken of in TD legend. Seriously, he was great and I want to say a big thank you to the work he did). There was just a lot of bad points too.

Quote:Of the seven rooms, no puzzles were solved, and only the fight against the water snake was won.

What were your impressions of the water snake room? Do you think you won because it was fun or that it was to easy? Could you give a little more detail on the water snake? How do you think it stacked up against other TD combat and puzzles from the past?

There was some inconsistency in the enforcement of the number of failures meaning zero treasure. I believe it supposed to be 3 fails at Normal for no stamp, 2 fails on HC, and 1 on NM. I agree about the brute force puzzle last year, which I assume was the 'thousand' switch puzzle.... that one got my goat as well. I don't believe that allowing more than 3 fails is a good thing, though.

I am not sure which rooms you are referring to when it comes to wiping out a whole party with puzzles. Once you have 3 fails, the push damage should stop and you have essentially failed the room. On normal I think that is 9 total damage. As far as Normal difficulty, combat should only be killing people quickly in room 7. With the healing that is available from the Paladin, Cleric, and Druid you can usually keep players alive until then.

I am sad that new players didn't get to experience the fun I had on my first TD run, and that your return experience was rough. I would suggest trying to get into an experienced group on the forums next year and see if that helps. Let people know what level you would like to play on, and you may find it a lot more fun. I do 2 sealed runs a year, and it is one of the better times I have

Sable Room 6 (drow and spider eggs) could deal party damage on higher difficulties, I don't remember if it did on Normal.

Overall, I think that the concept of the water snake room was pretty cool, what with having to roll in order to be able to attack or do anything each turn, but I do think that it was one of the easier true dungeon fights I've ever been a part of just because luck was with us (we didn't roll anything less than 17 each time we rolled). The board had a nice layout, so our newbies were able to easily aim and hit it, which they did seem to quite enjoy.

Yep, that 'thousand' switch puzzle was exactly what I was talking about, lol. Ironically, my group last year tried to logic our way through it, before we started just flipping switches. And yeah, after I came to the forums I've been seeing that there was apparently a limit-per-level on tries. I can honestly say that in none of our runs were we ever told anything like that, minus from one DM who did say if we 'failed to complete the puzzle in three or less attempts, the treasure would fade from the room'. (I appreciate this DM's attempt at fitting it in to the story! but it was confusing because we thought it was a mechanic of the room). Most of our room DMs just sat back and, if we started to try anything just said 'if you brute force this, you fail'. Which was just as confusing.

And I was referring to that last room on the Underdark Puzzle side, with the table of ghostly spiders where you had to put the eggs in the right slots. I was fine with the part where if a spider touched you, you died. That gave it a nice edge of fear, like you were really plunging your hand in to a spider nest. What I didn't agree with was the fact that if you placed that final egg and even one was wrong, it was an instant total party wipe out (or was that just for our run?) The push damage was also inconsistent on our runs. The first time we ran the Sable Gauntlet, we took five points of push damage from the first room. Pretty standard, easy enough to heal from. The second time we ran it, we took nine from the same room. On one of our Underdark runs, the push damage from one room was twelve. And I agree about normal difficulty. It is typically a nice, solid difficulty choice even for new players (our first ever run was on normal and we survived even with hardly any gear). When we ran with our group of new players though, we were out of healing spells probably by room five due to having to heal up from push damage alone, and then the Drow assassin started picking off players almost as easily as the boss monsters (players started to constantly ask 'we're on normal, right?')

Amber Mason wrote: Overall, I think that the concept of the water snake room was pretty cool, what with having to roll in order to be able to attack or do anything each turn, but I do think that it was one of the easier true dungeon fights I've ever been a part of just because luck was with us (we didn't roll anything less than 17 each time we rolled). The board had a nice layout, so our newbies were able to easily aim and hit it, which they did seem to quite enjoy.

Yep, that 'thousand' switch puzzle was exactly what I was talking about, lol. Ironically, my group last year tried to logic our way through it, before we started just flipping switches. And yeah, after I came to the forums I've been seeing that there was apparently a limit-per-level on tries. I can honestly say that in none of our runs were we ever told anything like that, minus from one DM who did say if we 'failed to complete the puzzle in three or less attempts, the treasure would fade from the room'. (I appreciate this DM's attempt at fitting it in to the story! but it was confusing because we thought it was a mechanic of the room). Most of our room DMs just sat back and, if we started to try anything just said 'if you brute force this, you fail'. Which was just as confusing.

And I was referring to that last room on the Underdark Puzzle side, with the table of ghostly spiders where you had to put the eggs in the right slots. I was fine with the part where if a spider touched you, you died. That gave it a nice edge of fear, like you were really plunging your hand in to a spider nest. What I didn't agree with was the fact that if you placed that final egg and even one was wrong, it was an instant total party wipe out (or was that just for our run?) The push damage was also inconsistent on our runs. The first time we ran the Sable Gauntlet, we took five points of push damage from the first room. Pretty standard, easy enough to heal from. The second time we ran it, we took nine from the same room. On one of our Underdark runs, the push damage from one room was twelve. And I agree about normal difficulty. It is typically a nice, solid difficulty choice even for new players (our first ever run was on normal and we survived even with hardly any gear). When we ran with our group of new players though, we were out of healing spells probably by room five due to having to heal up from push damage alone, and then the Drow assassin started picking off players almost as easily as the boss monsters (players started to constantly ask 'we're on normal, right?')

If there is any consistency issue with push damage, do not be afraid to ask the DM. They may misread the difficulty that was chosen for that run.

Hi Amber,
Thanks for posting about your experience.

I totally agree with you about the change to the treasure stamps rule - it was not communicated well, and took a lot of people by surprise, at a time when they were already under a lot of pressure to solve a difficult puzzle.

The Combats were also very challenging this year, and it felt like the damage levels had ramped up significantly, even on "normal" mode. I don't know if this was entirely accurate, or if some DMs were applying the wrong damage values, but yeah, I can see how it would have put people off.

There's been a lot of feedback from people on the topic, so I'm confident that True Dungeon will look at it, and evaluate the results of this year's dungeon. That doesn't necessarily help you at this point, but I'm hoping you'll play again, and your experience next year will be a lot better.

Also, if you do want someone in True Adventures to address your concerns directly, you could send a message to Admin on the PM system here... though you might have to wait a little while for a reply. It's always crazy for a bit after the event.