TOPIC: Improving the Party Card

Druegar wrote: How will the DM know which is the primary and which is the secondary when looking at pucks on the combat board? I'm disinclined to use color-coded pucks because the various lightning conditions in rooms can make different colors look alike.

I agree with not using the colors sliders/pucks.

It shouldn't be that hard to figure out which is the primary vs secondary weapon tho. Normally both sliders will be on the board, and a quick glance will tell you which one is the better one (or if they are equal). I always glance at the weapon token anyways, to make sure I'm using the right bonus column (melee vs ranged) and whether the weapon is a Keen (I especially watch for this when players hit the 19).

In Grind, we had one player who was dealing out brutal damage to the blink dogs by sliding her Keen weapon into the huge 19 zone. I was just lucky that the blink dogs were "blinked out" over half of the time when she hit, or there wouldn't have been any dogs left, when Eric called for them to run interference.

With the new Keen weapons, Combat DMs will have to be extra careful to watch for Keen criticals this coming year!

There are multiple issues being discussed and it is all getting kind of muddled.

Issue #1
+ to Hit on Different Weapons.
--The truth of the matter is that the weapon intate + to hit marked on the token should have never entered into the card. The DM should have been the one to add the slide number + the token bonus + the equipment bonus (marked on the card). This would allow for any weapon switching that was required and no adjustment needs to be made for main / off hand weapons. Damage works like this because it is baked into the damage wheel.

Issue #2
Who has what token "Equipped"
-- An Equipment card is perfect for this ... and easily done with the preformed party generators ... The simple fact is that coaches do not have the time to fill this in as well. Coaches would need at least 5 minutes or more per person and we only have 2.4 minutes barely enough to get the character sheet done.

Issue #3
Irrelevant columns on the Party Card.
-- Not really an issue since these change every year / dungeon. If the Coach / DM heads make sure only relevant columns are on it ... then yes we can also put down relevant damage types for weapons / immunities.

I do special index cards for my guild's players. It lists things especially not on the card like the -1 damage for barbarian, -1 melee damage from the ruby ioun stone. -X damage for darkrift, sonic, shock, etc...

My guild also has special token wallets for each character. We put the Figurines, Death Die and other tokens DMs may request in the bag (like Masterwork thieves tools, Ektard tool for the rogue. The Bard has 4 different instruments ... etc)

But if we want to take the equipped joke to the full length .... the bags of tokens and potions everyone carries would now need to be split so that each player is carrying there own ... and what 1 round to pass a potion to someone ? 1 to drink it ... so 2 rounds out of combat ?

It seems extreme ... I also don't want to be counting out all the scrolls , wands, healing objects in the coaches room and marking somewhere what people are carrying in. Its an honor thing but it is also a "party bag". Especially with the Pouch of Tulz there is nothing in Real Life stopping anyone from drawing a potion out of a backpack owned / carried by another person, so mute point. The death die I can understand along with the figurine but it seems more of an honor system.

DMs are still going to be time limited and unlike traditional pen and paper where you have all night / weekend, TD has 12 minutes to herd cats, perform combat, allow people to heal, and move them on. (Somewhere story telling occurs too)

There is also the party dynamic of the traditional Pick up Group, the new guy has limited stuff but needs healing, maybe even a scroll to be useful. I being a collector / large token buyer have a plethora but I am not willing to just toss money at a person for the sake of them "carrying it", but I am more then happy to hand them a needed item at the time.

In true grind Dust of Appearance was really needed for the noble serpent. Fortunately I (being fighter) and our Monk pre packed a bunch of tokens. I was able to easily hand the token to the wizard who then the next round used the dust.

Would you consider this "cheating" because the wizard didn't carry it in with him ? (I use cheating as a relative term .. no where near as bad as the death die.)

Let's discuss the death die a second, most of these groups were not pre formed parties. Had everyone had a chance to distribute stuff a head of time I can see more of the point; however this might be a bit of nit picking. The original player brought 2 death die's as I understand it. 1 was used personally, and one was handed to another player. I agree this is a "static item" and under normal circumstances should have been attached to a specific player before entering the dungeon. I would say tho that the DM had the discretion to disallow the roll specifically because it was unattached at the time.

Gear items are unlike potions, wands and scroll, and should be attached or disallowed. The question isn't why we want this done, but how do we do this in a time efficient manner.

The other question is this ... Does it really matter ? 2 death die were in play .. they were used .. and the players could produce 2 of them .. at that point both are now out of play the rest of the game. It's almost a full corner case, but I believe we should as a rule NOT allow gear transfers while in an active dungeon. If they don't walk in with the item equipped it can not be used. Potions/wands / scrolls being the only exception to the rule.

Regards,
Anthony Brown

Raven wrote:

Druegar wrote: How will the DM know which is the primary and which is the secondary when looking at pucks on the combat board? I'm disinclined to use color-coded pucks because the various lightning conditions in rooms can make different colors look alike.

I agree with not using the colors sliders/pucks.

How about if the second pucks for Rangers and Monks were just labeled "Ranger - secondary" and "Monk - secondary?" You wouldn't even have to necessarily make new pucks. The current ones could be scribbled on, by a steady neat hand.

Adeya wrote: How about if the second pucks for Rangers and Monks were just labeled "Ranger - secondary" and "Monk - secondary?" You wouldn't even have to necessarily make new pucks. The current ones could be scribbled on, by a steady neat hand.

That seems like a simple solution.

Since we have Raven and Incognito here, how would you like us to handle situational modifiers? For instance, I asked Eric a couple of times if he took into account the Dwarf Fighter's additional To-hit vs monsters and AC vs. large creatures (he did, of course). I stopped asking when I realized I was slowing down the game. How much should we let the GM do their job vs. reminding them of our tokens? My Black Pearl Ioun Stone is one that's easy to forget in the heat of combat, and I don't know if it's on the Party Card or not.

Anthony brown wrote: Issue #1
+ to Hit on Different Weapons.
--The truth of the matter is that the weapon intate + to hit marked on the token should have never entered into the card. The DM should have been the one to add the slide number + the token bonus + the equipment bonus (marked on the card). This would allow for any weapon switching that was required and no adjustment needs to be made for main / off hand weapons. Damage works like this because it is baked into the damage wheel.

That's a good point. I wouldn't mind if we changed to this way. It certainly makes sense. (Assuming combat DM's are okay with a little basic math).

Issue #2
Who has what token "Equipped"
-- An Equipment card is perfect for this ... and easily done with the preformed party generators ... The simple fact is that coaches do not have the time to fill this in as well. Coaches would need at least 5 minutes or more per person and we only have 2.4 minutes barely enough to get the character sheet done.

Yes an equipment card would be perfect.

There is also the party dynamic of the traditional Pick up Group, the new guy has limited stuff but needs healing, maybe even a scroll to be useful. I being a collector / large token buyer have a plethora but I am not willing to just toss money at a person for the sake of them "carrying it", but I am more then happy to hand them a needed item at the time.

In true grind Dust of Appearance was really needed for the noble serpent. Fortunately I (being fighter) and our Monk pre packed a bunch of tokens. I was able to easily hand the token to the wizard who then the next round used the dust.

Would you consider this "cheating" because the wizard didn't carry it in with him ? (I use cheating as a relative term .. no where near as bad as the death die.)

Let's discuss the death die a second, most of these groups were not pre formed parties. Had everyone had a chance to distribute stuff a head of time I can see more of the point; however this might be a bit of nit picking. The original player brought 2 death die's as I understand it. 1 was used personally, and one was handed to another player. I agree this is a "static item" and under normal circumstances should have been attached to a specific player before entering the dungeon. I would say tho that the DM had the discretion to disallow the roll specifically because it was unattached at the time.

For consumables, I don't mind if someone else is carrying it. Or if it gets passed around. A common situation is when the person who dies has a Potion of Death's Door. They then give it to someone who will spend their action bringing them back to life.

With gear, I can understand the value of lending the use of tokens to strangers without necessary lending the physical token itself. For things like armor, it's usually fine to just show the token when filling out the party card (but not physically giving the token away).

For other things like the Death Die, if you don't want to physically give your spare to another player, one thing that I have done in the past is scribble down somewhere (on the party card, on a different sheet of paper) that it is being used by another player.

Also, a major difference is tokens that need to be actively used vs those used reactively.

For example, I think it's far less of an issue who is physically carrying the Figurine of Power: Phoenix. It is used actively. And used as a free action so it's rare that a Cleric/Paladin won't be able to use it when they want it. But for something like the Dragon/Tortoise/Cat figurines, it's much more relevant who is "using" it. (Which doesn't necessarily mean they have to physically have it in hand).

The other question is this ... Does it really matter ? 2 death die were in play .. they were used .. and the players could produce 2 of them .. at that point both are now out of play the rest of the game.

Yes, it is definitely relative.

To me the difference is like requiring the Paladin to announce his guard target at the beginning of combat (i.e. figuring out which player is using the Death Die) as opposed to letting the Paladin decide who he is guarding after the monster has chosen a target (i.e. deciding who is using the Death Die only after someone is about to die).

Or the monster choosing his victim before rolling the die and letting him roll the die first and then choosing who he attacked.

Incognito wrote:

Anthony brown wrote: + to Hit on Different Weapons.
The DM should have been the one to add the slide number + the token bonus + the equipment bonus (marked on the card).

That's a good point. I wouldn't mind if we changed to this way. It certainly makes sense. (Assuming combat DM's are okay with a little basic math).

I'm okay with a little math. We already have to add in things like the Bard Song and Potion Bull Strength bonuses. And maybe a Bless. But that stops being "a little math" for the average DM. The bonuses were written on the party card so the DM would have to do as little math as possible, because practical experience had shown it was simply too much for them.

Issue #2
Who has what token "Equipped"
-- An Equipment card is perfect for this ... and easily done with the preformed party generators ... The simple fact is that coaches do not have the time to fill this in as well. Coaches would need at least 5 minutes or more per person and we only have 2.4 minutes barely enough to get the character sheet done.

Yes an equipment card would be perfect.

Seriously? I don't want to have to carry around 10 equipment cards for every party I see in Grind, just so I can quickly check who has what.

I usually look it over when I'm writing up the player card (usually watching for specific tokens which will affect my monsters) like last year if someone used their Belt of the Vine, so I would remember to add a couple extra damage when they hit the Giant Constrictor Vines. But I ignore most other situational equipment, and assume the player will remind me if it's in use (Boots of the Underdark, Figurines, Ioun Stones)

I don't know how it would be any easier to know exactly what each player is carrying, but my guess is that it would really slow down combat if I had to check - either the token or the equipment card - so I'd rather just give them the benefit of a doubt, and carry on. If they are lying, they are only cheating their own enjoyment of the event.

I know bard song gets forgotten a LOT, especially for the bard who's singing. I know quite often I'll hear a combat damage number like "13" and sigh knowing I can't possibly have done that little damage as my base is 10 and song should have added 4 more.

Clearly I'd love to bake those bonuses into the party card, especially when the bard has the tokens to prove they'll always be singing.

I'm in favor of baking as much into the card so the DMs don't have to count but I can see how a different arrangement could be made for grind since it has far superior skill level.

Raven wrote: Seriously? I don't want to have to carry around 10 equipment cards for every party I see in Grind, just so I can quickly check who has what.

I usually look it over when I'm writing up the player card (usually watching for specific tokens which will affect my monsters) like last year if someone used their Belt of the Vine, so I would remember to add a couple extra damage when they hit the Giant Constrictor Vines. But I ignore most other situational equipment, and assume the player will remind me if it's in use (Boots of the Underdark, Figurines, Ioun Stones)

I don't know how it would be any easier to know exactly what each player is carrying, but my guess is that it would really slow down combat if I had to check - either the token or the equipment card - so I'd rather just give them the benefit of a doubt, and carry on. If they are lying, they are only cheating their own enjoyment of the event.

Well, I wouldn't expect to actually need to check it 99% of the time.

And it's very presence would act as a deterrent to prevent a lot of cheating. Because if it's an issue, we can always refer back to it (which we probably won't need to do).

Also, there are a few rare situations where there may be an "unknown factor" but openly inquiring about it would be too much of a spoiler. So I can then surreptitiously check for something without needing to raise any red flags....

valetutto wrote: I know bard song gets forgotten a LOT, especially for the bard who's singing. I know quite often I'll hear a combat damage number like "13" and sigh knowing I can't possibly have done that little damage as my base is 10 and song should have added 4 more.

Most of the time the DM is probably forgetting.

There could be rare cases where damage reduction or resistance to certain types of damage may result in less damage than you might otherwise expect.

Clearly I'd love to bake those bonuses into the party card, especially when the bard has the tokens to prove they'll always be singing.

No, I definitely do NOT think that Bardsong bonuses should be factored into the party card. Oftentimes, the Bard is *not* always singing:

- Bard could be dead

- Bard could be in a separate room (e.g. split rooms which Grind sometimes does)

- Bard could be under some status effect preventing him from singing (hold, stun, sleep). This past weekend, one Bard tried to cast a Mute spell on the Spectator beholder-kin. It got reflected and the Bard failed his own save, so he ended up muting himself (during which I did not apply Bardsong).

Raven wrote:

Donald Rients wrote: Last year in Grind, Raven attacked me with normal arrows (from a Harpy I believe). I was full HP when she did and I eventually died from all the rounds of arrows. About two rounds later I realized that I forgot about having the Wind Set and that I was immune to normal arrows - two rounds too late.

If you were on Normal mode, and I didn't notice the "Wind Set" marked on the party card, I apologize. However, I assure you that if the Harpy had seen her arrows bounce off you, she would have changed tactics very quickly. True Grind monsters are a cut above the average dungeon monster in intelligence. Eric only recruits the best!

I believe we were nightmare or hardcore. I don’t think we did normal on any of our Grinds. Earlier in this thread Incognito stated that they were magic arrows at that point, so now I feel better about me forgetting that I had the wind set. As I remember I was the first to die in that Grind at GenCon, and I was first to die in the Grind at WYC last Saturday. I think there is a pattern evolving.

Donald Rients wrote: I believe we were nightmare or hardcore. I don’t think we did normal on any of our Grinds. Earlier in this thread Incognito stated that they were magic arrows at that point, so now I feel better about me forgetting that I had the wind set. As I remember I was the first to die in that Grind at GenCon, and I was first to die in the Grind at WYC last Saturday. I think there is a pattern evolving.

Stop poking the monsters! They WILL bite back!

I think the obvious answer is we have to clone Incognito, Raven, Druegar, bpsymington, and a few of the other top DMs and coaches.

Xavon - We were planning that, but Lori says she's not giving up the cloning machine until she figures out how to use it to clone Jeff!