TOPIC: Improving the Party Card

This thread is to discuss ways to possibly improve the party card. Either the physical party card, or the way player coaches fill it in.

I realize that TD probably has stacks of old party cards it wants to use up first (probably from 2012 since they have Cold Climate stuff).

Here is what I think:


#1. Remove cornercase columns in the Special Abilities section:

- Evil Outsider Immunity (Celestial)
- Deadbane (Mithral 5-piece)
- +1 Mithral LS Slayer (Mithral 6-piece), and
- Cold Climate Immunities

are all too narrow to be included and should be excluded.

- Cannot Be Surprised and
- Free Action

are fine though.

Other things which I find would be helpful are:

- Retribution damage inflicted to monsters (I think older party cards used to include this)
- Evasion
- Damage Reduction / Resistances
- Sets (just a general column. You can then right the specific sets in it).
- maybe something specific for the Druegar's Death Die.

I think the Death Die should be clearly indicated. This past weekend at Who's Yer Con, I had an instance where a player died. And then another player is like "oh I have an extra Druegar's Death Die. Why don't you use it?" That time I gave him the benefit of the doubt and let him use it. But now that I've had time to think about it, it's not a good idea because then essentially one Death Die can cover a whole party (the first player to die gets to roll). The Death Die should be tied to a specific player (from the start of the adventure) and cannot be selectively loaned out in the middle of combat.


#2. Ranger/Monk secondary weapons

I realize that for the normal Dungeon, to make things easier and simpler for Player Coaches, they decided a few years ago to simply carry over the same hit/damage of the primary weapon for Rangers and Monks to their secondary weapon.

I think that was a bad decision. And one that will become even more problematic with the introduction of +3 and +5 weapons. The secondary Bracer of Quivering Palm or Orb of Might really should not be getting the +5 to hit from your Asher's Viper Strike Fang.

The same also applies to weapons you swap out for during combat.

This past weekend, there was a situation where Raven (my assistant DM) was trying to explain why the combat bonuses of a +5 Asher's (which was used to fill out the party card) would not apply when the player switched to a +2 Sundering Cestus. The situation was even more significant since there was an artifact in play which was doubling the + bonuses of all weapons, so it was essentially a +10 Asher's vs a +4 Cestus.

So I think that TD should change its general stance (though I understand if it keeps the current system to make it "simpler").

However, since Raven and I usually do the Grind party cards and we have the requisite expertise, I think we might try to bring back the "primary / secondary" system again for Grind at least.


#3. Damage types

There is an ever increasing amount of damage types, so this becomes more and more relevant.

There was discussion about this last year in the "POd about no saves/no dodges" thread with some forumites (like valetutto) strongly in favor of the party card showing damage types. For last year, this was relevant in both Golembane (one room where cold did extra damage) and Lycans Afoot (fire was relevant against the Werewolf).

Since there are so many types of damage, I'm not sure how many you could squeeze on to the page, but it might be something that player coaches (and players who prepare their cards beforehand) should include.

For example, this past weekend, we would have players bringing in their already prepared stats, but they would simply list "+26 melee damage." Only after inquiring further did we learn (and note down) that 5 of it was sonic, 3 sacred, 2 cold, and 1 poison. Relevant since some monsters are immune to poison and sacred does extra to undead.

I think an easy solution to the elemental bonuses to damage is log the total as a large number in the box, then add the small bonuses in the 4 corners. That would only be a problem if people had more than 4 diff types of damage added, lol.

I'm not a GM, but here's my 2 cents. Keep in mind that my POV is Ranger, so I look at it from there.

Incognito wrote:
#1. Remove cornercase columns in the Special Abilities section:

- Evil Outsider Immunity (Celestial)
- Deadbane (Mithral 5-piece)
- +1 Mithral LS Slayer (Mithral 6-piece), and
- Cold Climate Immunities

are all too narrow to be included and should be excluded.

- Cannot Be Surprised and
- Free Action

are fine though.

Most of the things to be removed are set abilities. They should be covered there.

Other things which I find would be helpful are:

- Retribution damage inflicted to monsters (I think older party cards used to include this)
- Evasion
- Damage Reduction / Resistances
- Sets (just a general column. You can then right the specific sets in it).

I agree on retribution damage.
Evasion, DR, Resistances should be honor system, just like HP. There is essentially no difference.
Sets should even be a slightly expanded box. Now that 3-4 sets can be used simultaneously, there needs to be room.

- maybe something specific for the Druegar's Death Die.

I think the Death Die should be clearly indicated. This past weekend at Who's Yer Con, I had an instance where a player died. And then another player is like "oh I have an extra Druegar's Death Die. Why don't you use it?" That time I gave him the benefit of the doubt and let him use it. But now that I've had time to think about it, it's not a good idea because then essentially one Death Die can cover a whole party (the first player to die gets to roll). The Death Die should be tied to a specific player (from the start of the adventure) and cannot be selectively loaned out in the middle of combat.

I don't think that the Death Die needs to be recorded. At least, if you are going to record that, then you also should record:

• Pouch of Tulz
• Quiver of Anointment
• Alchemist Pouch

and anything else that is slotless, and usable by most classes.

#2. Ranger/Monk secondary weapons

I realize that for the normal Dungeon, to make things easier and simpler for Player Coaches, they decided a few years ago to simply carry over the same hit/damage of the primary weapon for Rangers and Monks to their secondary weapon.

I think that was a bad decision. And one that will become even more problematic with the introduction of +3 and +5 weapons. The secondary Bracer of Quivering Palm or Orb of Might really should not be getting the +5 to hit from your Asher's Viper Strike Fang.

The same also applies to weapons you swap out for during combat.

This past weekend, there was a situation where Raven (my assistant DM) was trying to explain why the combat bonuses of a +5 Asher's (which was used to fill out the party card) would not apply when the player switched to a +2 Sundering Cestus. The situation was even more significant since there was an artifact in play which was doubling the + bonuses of all weapons, so it was essentially a +10 Asher's vs a +4 Cestus.

So I think that TD should change its general stance (though I understand if it keeps the current system to make it "simpler").

However, since Raven and I usually do the Grind party cards and we have the requisite expertise, I think we might try to bring back the "primary / secondary" system again for Grind at least.

For you, Raven, and Mike, I have no problem with the +/+ system. For the general dungeon, I don't trust a lot of GM's to be able to keep up. I think Grind may need its own party card before long.

#3. Damage types

There is an ever increasing amount of damage types, so this becomes more and more relevant.

There was discussion about this last year in the "POd about no saves/no dodges" thread with some forumites (like valetutto) strongly in favor of the party card showing damage types. For last year, this was relevant in both Golembane (one room where cold did extra damage) and Lycans Afoot (fire was relevant against the Werewolf).

Since there are so many types of damage, I'm not sure how many you could squeeze on to the page, but it might be something that player coaches (and players who prepare their cards beforehand) should include.

For example, this past weekend, we would have players bringing in their already prepared stats, but they would simply list "+26 melee damage." Only after inquiring further did we learn (and note down) that 5 of it was sonic, 3 sacred, 2 cold, and 1 poison. Relevant since some monsters are immune to poison and sacred does extra to undead.

I agree that damage types should be on the party card. However, it becomes problematic when I am wielding a Viper Strike Dagger (+2 poison) in one hand, and +1 Keen Celestial Longsword (no damage type) in the other. Either a GM is not going to pay attention and -2 from my KCLS, or if its not recorded, not -2 from the dagger when it is relevant.

I agree on the Death die, we may need a rule like you must be holding the dice to use it or it may need a small check mark column like HOP,ROR,COGF get. Coach could put in one slash, the GM could turn it into an X or scribble it out when used.

Re damage types, as much as I would like it to be I don't think the party card is ever going to be a good place to record multiple damage types. Incog and Raven are great DMs and can handle multiple damage types but I worry we couldn't necessarily hold all other coaches and DMs to that standard. As an also incorrect compromise what would you guys think of having player choose their damage type in the coaching room (ie wearing bracers of fire and ring of frost you the player picks fire from the available types and the coach marks down +4 damage in one box and fire in another)

Different weapon bonuses for dual wielders is a pickle, even if we add an off hand bonus box for coaches to fill in its going to be confusing for DMs to keep track of which ranger puck has which weapon in it. Maybe were at the point where we need to talk about weapon locking.

I think, maybe as someone suggested, there should be a more detailed Party Card for True Grind.

I know the 2 main issues are 1) room on the card, you can only have so many columns; and 2) time it takes to prepare it. So the goals should be to maximize the space with what is most useful and can be easily completed in the time allotted.

To maximize space on possible change could be to label one column H/R/C which could be shorthand for HOP,ROR, COGF. The coach could write in the box up to the 3 single initials, that way all the treasure items could be covered in one column.

As for weapons lock, I think that would detract from the experience for example, at WYC Grind one of the monsters was sticky and people lost there primary melee weapon. So weapon locking won't have allowed this to play out, with people either needing to grab a secondary weapon or attack with range or attack a different creature.

Just a couple thoughts...all you Coaches/DM out there should chime in on what works and what doesn't

Picc wrote: I agree on the Death die, we may need a rule like you must be holding the dice to use it or it may need a small check mark column like HOP,ROR,COGF get. Coach could put in one slash, the GM could turn it into an X or scribble it out when used.

I specifically was thinking of the Pouch of Tulz when I made my list before. The Pouch is significantly more powerful than the Death Die. I know of at least one party that passed the Pouch from one character to another in Smoak 2.0. They all used PoDDs and then healed in the same round. Imagine a party just passing it and Bulls Strength down the line.
Why should the Death Die have a special slot on the party card, when it deals only with honor system stats anyway? Is it the 1/game clause?

Different weapon bonuses for dual wielders is a pickle, even if we add an off hand bonus box for coaches to fill in its going to be confusing for DMs to keep track of which ranger puck has which weapon in it. Maybe were at the point where we need to talk about weapon locking.

I am not at all for locking a weapon slot. This is detrimental to token sales. Furthermore, there have been too many specialty weapons introduced:
SeyLah's Cestus,Long Spear of Dragon Slaying, Sling of Impact, the list goes on and on. I have invested a lot of time, money and effort to have the correct tool for the job, and don't think it is fair to change the rules 8 years later.

However, I have been thinking about it, and have come up with 2 possible solutions that may make the job easier:

1. Colored Sliders: Make the off hand weapon red, or purple, or yellow. Make it bright and noticable.
2. Dry Erase Markers: I haven't tried it yet, but I would bet that making a giant +X on each of the tokens would wipe off easily. A bright color would be best again.

Incognito, i really like what you are saying here, just a few points to add.

For the regular dungeon, #2 and 3 would be difficult on the DMs. Those might need to stay simple.
I would also suggest a few situational bonuses somehow be marked. Im thinking of the boots of underdark +2 to-hit on sneak attack. A little note in the to-hit box would help make sure it is remembered without the rogue constantly yelling at the DM.
Lastly, if you do implement these changes for grind, please announce ahead of time; it will change some builds for grind.

Discussions like this are awesome. I love finding ways to improve the experience for both players and volunteers. That said, we need to keep something at the forefront of our minds when redesigning the party card: don't over-complicate it. Sure, we could include every possible token permutation on the card, but doing so would make it nearly useless due to information overload. TD isn't a video game where minutiae can be easily referenced by the computer. It's run by human beings with limited processing capabilities. I realize that's stating the obvious, but I think it bears repeating.

Another thing to keep in mind is the physical limitations of the card. Even after going from letter to legal size two years ago, it's still pretty tight. For everything we add, either something needs to be taken off or everything else gets squished a little bit. Squish it too much and we have readability problems.

Incognito wrote: #1. Remove cornercase columns in the Special Abilities section:

- Evil Outsider Immunity (Celestial)
- Deadbane (Mithral 5-piece)
- +1 Mithral LS Slayer (Mithral 6-piece), and
- Cold Climate Immunities

It sounds like you're looking at an old party card. Evil Outsider, Deadbane, Mithral, and Cold Climate cells were not on the 2013 party card .

Incognito wrote: Other things which I find would be helpful are:

- Retribution damage inflicted to monsters (I think older party cards used to include this)

Retribution made its party card debut in 2013.

Incognito wrote: - Evasion
- Damage Reduction / Resistances
- Sets (just a general column. You can then right the specific sets in it).

Because HP are tracked by the individual players, we generally don't include HP-related items on the party card.

The "Other Notes" column is to be used to include set bonuses or other information relevant to the party card.

Incognito wrote: I think the Death Die should be clearly indicated. This past weekend at Who's Yer Con, I had an instance where a player died. And then another player is like "oh I have an extra Druegar's Death Die. Why don't you use it?"

Druegar's Death Die only affects the owner. It may not be passed around like a potion. Yes, players can surreptitiously pass it around, but there are lots of other things they can do like that. Cheaters will cheat.

Incognito wrote: #2. Ranger/Monk secondary weapons

I realize that for the normal Dungeon, to make things easier and simpler for Player Coaches, they decided a few years ago to simply carry over the same hit/damage of the primary weapon for Rangers and Monks to their secondary weapon.

I think that was a bad decision. And one that will become even more problematic with the introduction of +3 and +5 weapons.

I don't think it was a bad decision, but it think it's one that merits reconsideration. I have two questions though:

1. How should the party card be redesigned to accommodate two distinct weapons for only two classes?
2. How will the DM know which is the primary and which is the secondary when looking at pucks on the combat board?

Incognito wrote: The same also applies to weapons you swap out for during combat.

I don't see how that could possibly work. (But if you have a viable method, I'm all ears!) There isn't enough room to write it, it would be information overload if there was room, and it would take too long to fill out.

Incognito wrote: since Raven and I usually do the Grind party cards and we have the requisite expertise, I think we might try to bring back the "primary / secondary" system again for Grind at least.

Maybe Grind should have its own party card design? If you and Raven want to make that happen, I'd be happy to work with you on it. Or, if you prefer, I'll stay the hell out of your way.

Incognito wrote: #3. Damage types

Since there are so many types of damage, I'm not sure how many you could squeeze on to the page, but it might be something that player coaches (and players who prepare their cards beforehand) should include.

A way to include "energy" (I'm using that term loosely) damage types on the party card is already in the works.

Incognito wrote: I think the Death Die should be clearly indicated. This past weekend at Who's Yer Con, I had an instance where a player died. And then another player is like "oh I have an extra Druegar's Death Die. Why don't you use it?" That time I gave him the benefit of the doubt and let him use it. But now that I've had time to think about it, it's not a good idea because then essentially one Death Die can cover a whole party (the first player to die gets to roll). The Death Die should be tied to a specific player (from the start of the adventure) and cannot be selectively loaned out in the middle of combat.

Ahh man, that was me. Yes I agree, I should have died, but I was pressured by teamates to use it. I think it should be tied to the holder rather than the party.

Personally, as a ranger, I carry and Owl, a Death Die, Damage Reduction, Retribution, etc. As a player I get caught up in the excitement of the moment and sometimes forget to use the items and/or apply reductions when taking damage or dying. When I get told you take 25 pts of damage, I don't always think, well that's 25 pts of damage -3 points for Viper Strike Shirt, -10 Points for the Supreme Ring, etc. On top of keeping track of that and telling the GM about retribution when I'm hit... it can be a bit overwhelming when in the moment.

It's my understanding that Bone Scroll Cases and Alchemist's Pouches have been made defunct or do Potions and Scrolls take damage still?

Donald Rients wrote: I think it should be tied to the holder

it is

Druegar wrote: url=http://tokendb.com/token/druegars-death-die/]Druegar's Death Die[/url] only affects the owner. It may not be passed around like a potion. Yes, players can surreptitiously pass it around, but there are lots of other things they can do like that. Cheaters will cheat.

Hey now, I the most honest player you'll find in the game. I don’t mind dying, it is part of the game. I get killed all of the time, usually the first to go. Through pressure and being unsure of how the Die is/was used I went along.
I do think that some of the most important items/gear should be recorded. Such as Alchemist pouch, Sea Dragon Scroll, Figurines, etc. It is kind of additional work for the coach, but some of these need to be known.
What I can’t figure out is how one person carries all of the items for the others in the party and then says who has them when it is needed. I see that quite a bit and disagree with it.
1. What if you have 8 Scarab Figurines but 10 people are in the party, kind of hard to say who has what when you are carrying all eight.
2. I remember in Carbondale in one of the dungeons we had the chance to get captured and then got moved three rooms down and did not see your teammates again until then. What if you were carrying all the tokens as discussed here, do your teammates now have none of the gear? What if you fall in a chasm?
I think the method of one person carrying the items that the others use should stop. If you use it you should be carrying it.