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In 2013 our plans call for us to add an additional adventure to the event. There will be two consecutive adventure modules, and each module will have two variations of either a combat or puzzle orientation. The first module called “Lycans Afoot” tasks the party to travel through a dark forest in search of a tower, while the second module called “Golembane” challenges the party to reach the top of tower.
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TOPIC: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread

Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #1

For the most part, I will be speaking about the wizard classes, because that is the class I play the most, but I would like this thread to be about all suggested caster changes, so please, if you play one of the other classes, chime in! And now, on to the show!

For awhile I have felt that the Caster classes need some changes, especially the wizard, and so I would like to propose the following ideas:

1) Add a new casting class - Sorceror
I know many people will probably be against this idea, but I think the addition of the Sorceror base class would be a fun addition. It would bring the total roster of available characters to 13. The party card description could have an ability that says "Arcane Equipment - May use any items that a Wizard may use." so that it doesn't cause any confusion for tokens already printed.

For those who aren't familiar with how a Sorceror functions vs a Wizard, let me briefly explain. Sorcerors gain their power innately rather than study, as such, they know fewer spells but they can cast more times per day. Their casting works like a Bard casting in that they have a certain number of spells they can cast total, but they can use those spells to cast any spell they currently know. Their skill checks could be the same as the wizard, however. Also like the bard, their major stat is Charisma (which could play into the idea of multiple Follower tokens that Jeff mentioned at one point.

2) Replace the Elf-Wizard with the Sorceror
I understand there would be an additional cost to print an additional character card, so the Elf-Wizard could be replaced by the sorceror class. The same spells could be kept, but it would be modified to cast like the bard, rather than a carbon copy with slight modifications of the Wizard.

3) Change some of the spells
Overall, I thought the Wizard this year had a good selection of spells, and I wouldn't recommend any real changes. That said, the Elf-Wizard does need some changes. For one, why is Detect Magic even still a spell. It is functionally useless, and pretty much just gets me a snarky response from the DM. Everytime I've ever casted it, the only thing that happens is that the DM tells me "Magic is all around you." I understand in the past that it had a true effect, but now it just is a waste of a spell slot. Lesser Maze on the Elf-Wizard also doesn' make a lot of sense. It banishes the creature for 1 round allowing people to take an action and then Initiative is rolled. Does that action allow free attacks against the monster, or just an additional "buffing" round? If the latter, Room DMs usually give us a minute to cast those spells anyway at the beginning of the Room already, so once again, it's kind of a wasted spell. Also, lose invisibility, or let it target someone else. Not much point to it, when there are already plenty of tokens that have that effect (Cloak of the Vale, Cloak of Elven Kind, etc.)

4) Allow customization of spells through "Feat Tokens"
Someone has suggested the idea of Feat Tokens instead of equipment to allow for some interesting play options. I feel this suggestion would work great in that the token could be used to replace some of the spells on the party card.
Example:
FEAT TOKEN - Prestidigitation, replaces Detect Magic 0-Level
Creates non-magical item for 1 room
(This could be used to mimic any 1 gear item for use in affecting puzzles if someone doesn't have that particular token on them, such as Mortal & Pestle, Small Mirror, 10-ft pole, etc.)

5) Increase spell DCs/lower AC targets for Spells.
Currently, I believe the AC targets for Sliding spells (15) is a bit too high, and the chance to save (12) is too low for many of our spells, especially with any bonuses the monsters get. For example, I play a 5th level wizard, and our big spell is a 30 pt blast (1 per game) with a DC of 12. All in all, not bad. But when the monsters get a bonus to reflex saves, this number shrinks. This year, I cast the spell on the Treant in Lycans, and the DM rolled a 5 and said it saved (+7 to Reflex Saves at the minimum). Some, including myself, have suggested tokens that increase our DC's, but that is just more gear to carry around and show to DMs. I think it should just be built into the character's abilities. I would say raise the DC to 15 or 16, and lower the Sliding spell targets to 11 to 12. Or even better, completely get rid of sliding spells, and make everything a skill check. I feel it would save time.

6) Build some more bonus damage into the spells.
This is more for the 5th level wizard than anything else. In traditional D&D, when a wizard levels, his spells become more potent than they were before. Magic Missle for example would fire an additional missle (it increased every odd level). So my sugesstion is that the 5th level wizards 0, 1, and 2nd level spells should do more damage than the 4th level. Pump the magic missle from 8 to 11 to 12 to 13 for a 5th level wizard. I just think a higher level character should do somewhat more damage. I mean, when a redded out, 4th level barbarian/fighter/ranger is doing weapon damage + 15 every hit, and a fully purpled 5th level wizard is still only firing an 8 to 11 point magic missle, something is unbalanced. It feels a bit like we are being punished for playing a class that does not, or chooses not, to play a sliding clsss.

Well, that's my two cents on the matter. Chime in with your own suggestions.
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Last edit: by Christopher Nieporte.

Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #2

Some changes to the bards low level spells would be great. Just change the selection a little. A cure light would be boss and in line with what a bard can do in D&D.

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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #3

I think if there needs to be a change to the wizard it is only in the 4th level wizard. Our two wizards did well over 150 points of damage in 1 round to the treant in Nightmare leaving us sliders to have 1 slide before it was dead. There are a lot of great tokens for the wizard and if used in creative combinations they do a lot of damage; a lot more then most combatants can do.

I remember only one actual combat that the GM game the group a buff round. Maze is cool, it just doesn't get used a lot. I agree, detect magic has become useless. Although, I think it caused the wording on the rope table in Lycan run to glow some extra words, I may be mistaken here. Either come up with things that it works on or give them a different 0 level spell.

I have even rethought the 4th level side. In the room I DM'ed even the newbie wizards rocked the house with their cold based spells, many times doing far more damage then the sliders.

My one comment about the 4th level wizards is that they tend to be a little lower in power averagely but can really do a one time big hit.

Bards need help!!!! Their spells are, how do we say mostly pointless. I agree, give them cure light wounds and a weaker magic missile.

Ranger's cure light should cure 7 points not 5.
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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #4

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I agree with archmage, I equip our bard like a fighter the use lyre of echos so he can attack on off rounds. Generally he doesn't bother with spells.
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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #5

Sliding is powerful in itself.

As a wimpy Cleric I usually wait until last to decide what to do. I've sometimes cast Spiritual Hammer specifically to bump another player into, say, the genie's chains or the 20-spot. This year I even nudged a Boomstick to turn the bomb into max damage. If I happen to actually do any damage with my own spell or weapon I consider it bonus.

But I know most caster-types don't like to slide. That's what's cool about TD. Lots of ways to play.

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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #6

archmage78 wrote: I think if there needs to be a change to the wizard it is only in the 4th level wizard. Our two wizards did well over 150 points of damage in 1 round to the treant in Nightmare leaving us sliders to have 1 slide before it was dead. There are a lot of great tokens for the wizard and if used in creative combinations they do a lot of damage; a lot more then most combatants can do.

I remember only one actual combat that the GM game the group a buff round. Maze is cool, it just doesn't get used a lot. I agree, detect magic has become useless. Although, I think it caused the wording on the rope table in Lycan run to glow some extra words, I may be mistaken here. Either come up with things that it works on or give them a different 0 level spell.

I have even rethought the 4th level side. In the room I DM'ed even the newbie wizards rocked the house with their cold based spells, many times doing far more damage then the sliders.

My one comment about the 4th level wizards is that they tend to be a little lower in power averagely but can really do a one time big hit.

Bards need help!!!! Their spells are, how do we say mostly pointless. I agree, give them cure light wounds and a weaker magic missile.

Ranger's cure light should cure 7 points not 5.


Can you give me a breakdown? The highest I can see happening is less than 100. And that is factoring in a full set of cabal in the party, and the monster epically failing his saving throws. Are you sure you aren't adding a druid Spellsurging his Call Lighting for an additonal 40 pts of damage to that max? And yes, that epic blast is awesome when everything works out, but my point is we have to save that maximum epic blast for the final room. Whereas the slider types are doing great damage in every other room.

As far as bards go, I completely agree. The spells need to be changed some what. A magic missle-like spell and a cure light would be awesome additions to the class
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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #7

A sorcerer class would be nifty, but if it came to light I would prefer it be a 13th option instead of a replacement for the Elf Wizard. Having a larger percentage of the available classes be casters would increase the usefulness of all those Cabal items, after all. ;)

I had forgotten the Feat token discussion, and agree it's worth looking into. I think your particular idea for Prestidigitation sounds pretty neat!

I'm lukewarm on the other suggestions though. Too much fiddling at once can be destabilizing.

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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #8

Garrison wrote: A sorcerer class would be nifty, but if it came to light I would prefer it be a 13th option instead of a replacement for the Elf Wizard. Having a larger percentage of the available classes be casters would increase the usefulness of all those Cabal items, after all. ;)

I had forgotten the Feat token discussion, and agree it's worth looking into. I think your particular idea for Prestidigitation sounds pretty neat!

I'm lukewarm on the other suggestions though. Too much fiddling at once can be destabilizing.


I wasn't suggesting all of them had to be done, I was just proposing some ideas that could be looked at.

I agree that too much fiddling can break a system.
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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #9

I agree that the fifth level wizard should have more powerful spells than the 4th. MM at 5th level does and average of 3.5 points more damage than at 4th. Other spells typically increase by a die per level.

As far as DC goes, this is an area where TD is way off. DCs of spells go up by one for each level of spell (i.e., a 3rd level spell has a DC one higher than a second and two higher than a first). In addition, DC is modified by intellegence (for wizards). The DCs should reflect the wizards intellegence bonus (3 for Elf, 4 for Human). And that would allow the introduction of Intellegence boosting tokens in the future (also could be applied to other spell casters with their appropriate stat bonus).

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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #10

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As someone who plays wizard all the time I would love to see the class get some upgrades. This year I put together token packs for all 12 classes for my newbie party to use, and I was surprised at how high I could make the bonuses to hit and damage for the slider classes. So here are my thoughts on your suggestions:

1) Add a new casting class - Sorceror
2) Replace the Elf-Wizard with the Sorceror

I don't see the need for this. My main fear is that if more classes were added, then the number of players per run would go even higher then 10. And this would be very bad in my opinion. If the Elf Wizard were renamed to Sorceror I wouldn't mind that as much, but I don't think it's worth the confusion.

3) Change some of the spells

Now this I would definitely like to see! Several of the spells on both wizard classes are useless to me, especially on the Elf Wizard. I agree Detect Magic is a waste. It can be replaced with another small damaging spell, perhaps something like "Sonicburst." Detect Magic can be made into a scroll instead if Jeff wants to keep the ability in the game. Invisibility is also useless. Wizards have tokens for that, often a Paladin to protect them, and nine other targets in the room that a DM can go after. Also it only works until you take a hostile action, so it's only potentially useful in puzzle rooms, but I would guess DMs would rule that you are magically detected anyway. Lesser Maze is ok, but only useful when there are multiple monsters, so the party can take one out before the removes one returns. And all of the sliding spells are basically useless to me too - more on that below.

4) Allow customization of spells through "Feat Tokens"

Feat Tokens would be cool. Any new slot for tokens is exciting, has tons of potential, and can benefit all classes in different ways.

5) Increase spell DCs/lower AC targets for Spells.

Any spells that require saves or slides are ones I turn to as a last resort. Well, I do use the 30 pt damage spells on the boss monsters but I just consider them 15 pt damage spells. In the 9 runs I played this year were I used that 30 pt damage spell on the boss monster every time, only once did the DM fail the reflex save. But the low save DC isn't as bad as the sliding spells (since it still does half damage when they pass the save). The sliding spells are a total waste for me. I play wizard and am in the back slinging spells. I don't see any reason for me to wade into melee and slide a puck. I'm in the way of the experienced sliders and I'm probably going to miss anyway since I'm not practiced on sliding. It throws off the main sliders' routine and slows things down. And we all know that time is usually the real enemy. Now I get that a newbie may want to experience all aspects of True Dungeon: sliding and spell casting, but then I would advise they avoid the wizard classes. If there is a desire to have a slide matter for a wizard's spell then let it be dependent on the slide that another player makes. For example, I could cast a spell on the Fighter's sword for a round and if he hits it makes his hit count for double damage. That way an experience slider is the one doing the sliding and I'm not in the way.

6) Build some more bonus damage into the spells.

This would be great, especially when moving from level 4 characters to level 5 characters. The extra spells are wonderful, but adding a point or two of damage to every spell on the 5th level card would be really cool and not overpowered at all in my opinion.

So there are my suggestions on the matter! Sorry to get a bit ranty there, but wizard spells are a matter close to my heart. :)
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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #11

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Wizard just got upgrades this year. It's someone else's turn now and I'm sure we'll get back to you guys in another 10 years.

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Re: Spellcaster Suggestion Thread 10 years 7 months ago #12

The Ranger's Barkskin spell is also something that needs some thought. It may make some sense thematically, but--I've never used it, or seen anyone else use it.
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