TOPIC: POd about no saves/no dodges

Well really all this points to is a very real need to stream line puzzles and final rooms.

All puzzles should either deal damage that is preventable/sourced or should be considered push damage and not. A decision should be made it should be stuck with. Also calculate in this puzzle push with regular push. Describe it as puzzle push damage and specifically say its not preventable.

As for final rooms or rooms with a set number of attempts allowed. I understand why someone might not want to allow grinding out the answer, but handle the damage in such a way so that you can't. Mearly saying you've only got 3 shots at this, seems very forced. Dealing damage on an attempt i'll just keep trying until you kill me so account for that an have the DMs specifically tell the players the damage is ramping up.

You could even do a "welcome to the last room where things work a bit different!" opening style so players know.


Personally I think failed puzzle attempts should be preventable damage. Thats what an overall failed room has push damage for.

The final room doesn't need to play by a different set of rules just indicate the push damage for this room is death so don't mess it up.

DantesGame wrote: They have fizzy lifting packs tokens..? Where do I get those?

Gnomish Fizzy Lifting Pack
Once per combat–as a Free Action–the wearer may attack flying or levitating (not just at range, the monster must be in the air) monsters with melee weapons. It allows a character to leap up, attack, and land safely back in the same spot from which it took off. This item neither impairs nor improves the ability to perform normal attacks or spell castings. The effect lasts one round.

Note: This item may only be used during combat.

Druegar wrote:

DantesGame wrote: They have fizzy lifting packs tokens..? Where do I get those?

Gnomish Fizzy Lifting Pack
Once per combat–as a Free Action–the wearer may attack flying or levitating (not just at range, the monster must be in the air) monsters with melee weapons. It allows a character to leap up, attack, and land safely back in the same spot from which it took off. This item neither impairs nor improves the ability to perform normal attacks or spell castings. The effect lasts one round.

Note: This item may only be used during combat.

Dude--I was totally joking. I even put a j/k under my post but I think the forum code blocked it because I used HTML wickets (greater than/less than brackets) around it.

I had no clue those were real so you can imagine how hard that made me laugh when I clicked your link.

Too funny.

I'd like to reiterate my statement from earlier in the year that in the case of things like Boots of Water Walking or Medallion of Greyhawk which would allow you to bypass a puzzle, in my opinion, the appropriate DM response is:

"Yes, that item will let defeat the puzzle. Now let's spend the next ten minutes solving it, and if you can't, then you beat it through brute force."

[quote="Druegar" post=178419It allows a character to leap up, attack, and land safely back in the same spot from which it took off. [/quote]

Because of this limitation, yeah, you would not be able to jump over this year's river/gorge puzzle.

On the other hand, I'm not sure why boots of water walking + rope + grappling hook/the pitons from the early years (optional + fizzy pack to launch up and firmly set the grappling hook), wouldn't work on crossing that puzzle for someone.

My biggest complaint this year is that we've been encouraged multiple times in the past to think "outside the box" for solutions to puzzles. Every time we tried to do that this year, we got a flat "NO, that WON'T work" from the DMs. Biggest case in point: My husband and I came up with an idea to get the egg out of the hollow tree stump. We suggested using our 2 grappling hooks to hook a bedroll between, forming a "hammock" and tying our 2 ropes to the grappling hooks - tossing the hammock in the trunk and using the sticks to roll the egg into/on the hammock and carefully lifting it out. First excuse the DM gave us was that it wouldn't work because the bark at the top of the trunk would cut our ropes (LAME!). Ok, so what if we put our second bedroll over the edge to protect the ropes (and for the record, yes, we had all these gear tokens on us and out/available to show the DM). Again we were told no and she eventually said "Nothing will work, you have to use the sticks". At this point I wanted to walk out of the run and demand my money back. If we aren't allowed to think outside the box, or use our mundane gear in creative ways, TD might as well save themselves a lot of time and hassle and quit printing the junk. This was a simple and logical solution - it's not like we were trying to jump through any magical item loopholes like using one of the wood warping rings to make a hole in the tree big enough to reach the egg... Do we really have to specifically tell GMs that it's OK to use common sense?

I know there have to be a lot of us players who collect the tokens - not JUST the elite armor/weapons, but also the basic gear items (like rope, bedrolls, mirrors, vials, etc) - for creative problem solving. TD goes through a lot of expense printing all those basic brown gear tokens - to have them be perfectly useless in the dungeons when it comes to solving a room is a slap in the face not only for the players, but for the TD production costs. To have them only printed just so we can trade in buckets of them for one little ingredient is also wasteful for both parties. At that point I'd rather get a token pack with 1 ingredient, 3 greens and one red item than the current setup with 7 browns.

While every DM cannot know everything, I do expect every DM to have common sense. True Dungeon is about the players vs the puzzles/monsters. It's NOT about players vs the DMs (which a number of DMs seem to turn it into). My other issue is with DMs who feel the need to indiscriminately hit whatever player they want with the monsters. If the bard and the wizard are in the back of the room doing their thing (singing/casting long range spells), how are they getting hit by melee attacks? How are the monsters getting past the wall of melee fighters to reach the back of the room? I can understand a wizard getting hit if they move up to do a close range spell like burning hands, or the bard getting hit if they decide to get into melee with a sword, but other than that kind of situation, it really gets my ire up when party tactics are thrown to the wayside just because the DM feels like spreading the pain around.

Overall I had fun again this year, but when you run into situations like these, especially when a number of us have sunk hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars into our tokens and countless hours in preparations for these runs, it leaves a very bitter taste in ones mouth and a bad impression on what is really an awesome experience. I still believe TD is one of the best things to do at GenCon, and is the primary reason I even go to GenCon anymore. I just would like to see the DM pool using more common sense and remember that this is about fun, not an us vs them.

Cynthia Wood wrote: [quote="Druegar" post=178419It allows a character to leap up, attack, and land safely back in the same spot from which it took off.

On the other hand, I'm not sure why boots of water walking + rope + grappling hook/the pitons from the early years (optional + fizzy pack to launch up and firmly set the grappling hook), wouldn't work on crossing that puzzle for someone.

My biggest complaint this year is that we've been encouraged multiple times in the past to think "outside the box" for solutions to puzzles. Every time we tried to do that this year, we got a flat "NO, that WON'T work" from the DMs. Biggest case in point: My husband and I came up with an idea to get the egg out of the hollow tree stump. We suggested using our 2 grappling hooks to hook a bedroll between, forming a "hammock" and tying our 2 ropes to the grappling hooks - tossing the hammock in the trunk and using the sticks to roll the egg into/on the hammock and carefully lifting it out. First excuse the DM gave us was that it wouldn't work because the bark at the top of the trunk would cut our ropes (LAME!). Ok, so what if we put our second bedroll over the edge to protect the ropes (and for the record, yes, we had all these gear tokens on us and out/available to show the DM). Again we were told no and she eventually said "Nothing will work, you have to use the sticks". At this point I wanted to walk out of the run and demand my money back. If we aren't allowed to think outside the box, or use our mundane gear in creative ways, TD might as well save themselves a lot of time and hassle and quit printing the junk. This was a simple and logical solution - it's not like we were trying to jump through any magical item loopholes like using one of the wood warping rings to make a hole in the tree big enough to reach the egg... Do we really have to specifically tell GMs that it's OK to use common sense?

I know there have to be a lot of us players who collect the tokens - not JUST the elite armor/weapons, but also the basic gear items (like rope, bedrolls, mirrors, vials, etc) - for creative problem solving. TD goes through a lot of expense printing all those basic brown gear tokens - to have them be perfectly useless in the dungeons when it comes to solving a room is a slap in the face not only for the players, but for the TD production costs. To have them only printed just so we can trade in buckets of them for one little ingredient is also wasteful for both parties. At that point I'd rather get a token pack with 1 ingredient, 3 greens and one red item than the current setup with 7 browns.

While every DM cannot know everything, I do expect every DM to have common sense. True Dungeon is about the players vs the puzzles/monsters. It's NOT about players vs the DMs (which a number of DMs seem to turn it into). My other issue is with DMs who feel the need to indiscriminately hit whatever player they want with the monsters. If the bard and the wizard are in the back of the room doing their thing (singing/casting long range spells), how are they getting hit by melee attacks? How are the monsters getting past the wall of melee fighters to reach the back of the room? I can understand a wizard getting hit if they move up to do a close range spell like burning hands, or the bard getting hit if they decide to get into melee with a sword, but other than that kind of situation, it really gets my ire up when party tactics are thrown to the wayside just because the DM feels like spreading the pain around.

Overall I had fun again this year, but when you run into situations like these, especially when a number of us have sunk hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars into our tokens and countless hours in preparations for these runs, it leaves a very bitter taste in ones mouth and a bad impression on what is really an awesome experience. I still believe TD is one of the best things to do at GenCon, and is the primary reason I even go to GenCon anymore. I just would like to see the DM pool using more common sense and remember that this is about fun, not an us vs them.[/quote]

Well the tree was a physical item... if you actually had the grappling hook, rope etc... you probably could have used it.

I actually had no problem when they told me no on that one, I forgot about that since we only did one of our runs in the Lycan side.

The eel we used turkey legs to distract them and through the coins in the water to simulate tossing the turkey legs in.

The grapple hook and rope probably needed the real thing. Good job on thinking outside the box, just needed the actual physical items to try to do it. IMO.

Wait, eels?!?

Also, I don't believe for a second that if I walked into a TD dungeon with a rope, grappling hooks and bedrolls, I would be allowed to bypass puzzles by using them. Any more than I believe I would be allowed to defeat a monster by hitting the animatronic with a hammer.

Cynthia Wood wrote: My biggest complaint this year is that we've been encouraged multiple times in the past to think "outside the box" for solutions to puzzles. Every time we tried to do that this year, we got a flat "NO, that WON'T work" from the DMs. ... At this point I wanted to walk out of the run and demand my money back. If we aren't allowed to think outside the box, or use our mundane gear in creative ways, TD might as well save themselves a lot of time and hassle and quit printing the junk.

I have felt this frustration several times myself. I believe it is because True Dungeon tries a bit too much to satisfy everyone. On one hand it claims to encourage players to think outside the box and even roleplay a bit, and prints gear tokens specifically to help that angle, and there are specific "creative" situations written up by Jeff in each adventure that provide interesting and alternative ways for challenges to be solved or monsters to be defeated. On the other hand, you're only allowed to be creative if you wind up using one of the exact situations that Jeff has anticipated, all in the name of consistency. I understand why, in an event with 8,000 slots, you need consistency. But if that is the case I think it's just opening up things to confusion if you also attempt to claim that "players can try anything they want".

This was my third year playing True Dungeon, and I was not as upset as I was in prior years when the DMs flatly denied my ideas. Unfortunately, I don't think this is due to an improvement in True Dungeon as much as it is simply me accepting the reality that there really isn't much room for creativity in the current setup. The game is too big.

Toran wrote: I don't believe for a second that if I walked into a TD dungeon with a rope, grappling hooks and bedrolls, I would be allowed to bypass puzzles by using them.

Agreed. I almost grabbed the rope prop lying on the ground in the campfire area, intending to use it to help in the next room (egg/tree). But I figured it wasn't worth even trying. The poor dryad looked about ready to freak out as it was, what with my party members standing on toadstools and sitting on each others' shoulders in an attempt to grab the eggs from above.

Garrison wrote:

CrowOfPyke wrote: If the entire team decides to wear fizzy lifting packs because they heard there is a gorge in the adventure and they want to fly over it, why not? That would be an incredible investment and sacrifice of a lot of back slots to pull off, so I say if they're willing to do it more power to them. Of course, if 5 of the heroes fly over the chasm like that I don't know if that would make things easier for the remaining 5...as I said, it might actually make the puzzle harder to solve. And of course, there's no guarantee those with jetpacks would make it over the chasm. Perhaps flying monsters would intercept them...and the heroes would fall into the chasm as their lifting packs give out. >

My point is that being overly strict on such things is, I agree, infuriating. And I don't think that restricting such things in the name of consistency and "fairness" is really a good answer. But that's just my opinion I suppose. It's not my event to run.

The Fizzy Lifting Packs wouldn't work in the chasm Room (Lycan's Room 6) because the Packs can only be used in combat. This was a non-combat Room. The Fearful Spirit was not a monster that could be fought.

This was my DM Room and prior to GenCon myself and a few other DMs were trying to figure out ways to "break" the Room with a Token or combo of Tokens or other ways.

The only Token that could have been used since this was a non-combat Room was Scroll Fly. When I asked if this would work I was told by the higher powers that it would not.

The other Room breaker I asked about would be if a "jacked up" Fighter with a strength of godly levels could pick up the Dwarf Fighter and toss him across the chasm. This idea was ruled out and we were advised to tell a Party if they would try this that: "the toss would just not be enough distance."

So, yes, some of your DMs did try and "break" a Room just as if we were a Player. Jeff and the ACs would then debate and make decision if it would be feasible or doable or if it would just not work.

Okay, Ro-gan. Good to know. (Although my example with the fizzy lifting packs was just a colorful illustration; the specific item in question isn't the point.)

But this begs the question: Did you guys actually come up with any clear situations that would solve the room in a clever way, and decide to accept those? Or was the purpose of these brainstorming sessions specifically to tweak things to prevent any creative ideas from working?

If it was the latter, I can understand the need for that in an event this big. But then, True Dungeon shouldn't be implying it is as a place for creativity. The secondary market for many off-year tokens would become much less than it currently is, as many tokens have perceived value based on their assumed in-game effects. Apparently, if I'm reading your post right, in many cases these assumptions are wrong.

Garrison wrote: Okay, Ro-gan. Good to know. (Although my example with the fizzy lifting packs was just a colorful illustration; the specific item in question isn't the point.)

But this begs the question: Did you guys actually come up with any clear situations that would solve the room in a clever way, and decide to accept those? Or was the purpose of these brainstorming sessions specifically to tweak things to prevent any creative ideas from working?

If it was the latter, I can understand the need for that in an event this big. But then, True Dungeon shouldn't be implying it is as a place for creativity. The secondary market for many off-year tokens would become much less than it currently is, as many tokens have perceived value based on their assumed in-game effects. Apparently, if I'm reading your post right, in many cases these assumptions are wrong.

We were asked to come up with clever ways to solve the Room besides the written solution to the Room created by Jeff. Some were accepted and some were not. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about this so I really don't want to say anymore that was discussed behind the curtain.