TOPIC: Rogue puzzle box request/plea

The type of "treasure" tokens in the Rogue puzzle boxes is rather... well... pretty bad.

Last year was an improvement - in four runs I walked away with 1,000GP in GP tokens. But I also got some useless... jank.

Can we please improve treasure tokens for the Rogue puzzle boxes this year? Ideally, they should be as well stocked as the final "treasure token" pull box at the end of adventures (minus the monster trophies of course).

I know this has been a request of Rogue players for *years* now. Thought I'd mention it again so that perhaps it won't get forgotten. Can we please make this happen this year? Please?

Yes, out of zero self-interest , can we please have something 'new' in the Rogue boxes...even if it is just a Treasure Chip or Map.

Would also be in favor of this. Previous discussions have raised concerns about people fighting over the rogue slot if the box treasure gets to good (might as well mention that now).

Last few thread where this was discussed for references sake.
truedungeon.com/forum?func=view&catid=5&id=160355
truedungeon.com/forum?func=view&catid=525&id=163054
truedungeon.com/forum?func=view&catid=525&id=162818

Some previous suggestions have included,

* Treasure maps & Treasure map fragments (personally find this one very elegant)

* Stocking the box with treasure chips so the rogue can effectively get an extra draw at the end. (less of a fan, I think this would tip the balance enough to make people fight over the rogue)

* Going with non token prizes like humorous buttons. (would personally love a button that said "master treasure hunter 2013" or "rogues guild member 2013")

The above suggestions though require the boxes to stay stocked with physical tokens/objects which has been a problem in the past (though not an insurmountable one since the number of runs should provide a ceiling for how many tokens a box room requires at preload). The bottom two suggestion come with the added benefit of not needing physical stock in the boxes


* Going with a series of effect cards that must be used immediately and are returned to the gm after being pulled (ie cache of healing potions: Each member of your party heals 2 hp etc)

* Removing the tokens entirely and letting the rogue get a treasure stamp for the party (ie if the party missed a stamp and the rogue takes the treasure the missing stamp is filled in. Maybe even let the rogue take the party to 4 stamps if they get all the puzzles and the rogue takes the loot once.)



I'm personally more in favor of the last two as it lets the rogue be the parties treasure hunter without having the party fight over who gets the treasure but really I would love to see any of the above implemented (though if were going to have the conversation again it would be great to have Jeff sound off on his thoughts on the current system and if any change is possible or desirable from an administrative stand point). It is a little disheartening to take the loot/have a libram and only pull a common when there's a stack of them sitting at the muster table for whoever needs them.

I can confirm that efforts were made to have no commons in the treasure boxes. As a matter of fact, I think there are supposed to be only rares in there, possible trophies as well. Mistakes happen, of course, but efforts were made!

bpsymington wrote: I can confirm that efforts were made to have no commons in the treasure boxes. As a matter of fact, I think there are supposed to be only rares in there, possible trophies as well. Mistakes happen, of course, but efforts were made!

I suspect some boxes may have run low and/or some GMs may have just handed out some of the healing items that were turned in to fill the gaps as I can personally vouch for reciving a "Potion Cure Minor Wounds" from the GMs apron as loot in one of my giants runs and my wife got a triangle marked "15 Gold Pieces" on one of hers (in no way a complaint, we assumed oh cool the boxes must be stocked with 2007 treasure)

bpsymington wrote: I can confirm that efforts were made to have no commons in the treasure boxes. As a matter of fact, I think there are supposed to be only rares in there, possible trophies as well. Mistakes happen, of course, but efforts were made!

Then that mistake must have happened twice last year to me, because twice I got a common token... and if I recall correctly, one of them was a Belt Pouch. Seriously, a Belt Pouch. The GP tokens I got were rare, I think I got one other rare... and the rest I think were uncommons... and the aforementioned two commons.


I am not convinced giving the Rogue a couple of extra token pulls at the end of an adventure per puzzle box is going to make people fight over being the Rogue. Plenty of people simply can't do it and fail - it does take a steady hand and patience. It's not like wearing a Ring Of Riches or Charm of Good Fortune where you are *gauranteed* those extra treasure pulls at the end - you can still easily fail at the Rogue puzzle box, and a majority of people do (as far as I have seen anyway, when not playing Rogue).

I am also not sure how I feel about giving out rewards that are "immediate party benefits" or only adding a treasure stamp to the party card. It is forcing the Rogue player to go down the "hero path" of, dare-I-say-it, being "Lawful Good". Successfully maneuvering the puzzle box is a singular activity to the Rogue player which should have rewards/risks for that player, unlike party level puzzles which have party level rewards.

I do like the idea of alternative rewards unique to the Rogue though. Perhaps collecting a series of stamps that leads to membership in the "Rogue's Guild", having that recorded in your permanent player record (in the DB) and getting a special pin? After that, strata and grades within the Rogue's Guild? Access to a special challenge event for Rogue's to see if you can do well enough to get a unique Rogue oriented token? (Like some of the challenge tokens from last year). Doing something along these lines prevent possible "fighting over the Rogue class" concerns that have been raised if the puzzle box was an extra treasure stamp for the Rogue player. It would reward the Rogue player's interested in it, without tipping the balance.

CrowOfPyke wrote:

I am not convinced giving the Rogue a couple of extra token pulls at the end of an adventure per puzzle box is going to make people fight over being the Rogue.

I'd fight for the chance (or at least pull player xp rank if I could) and I know a lot of folks who are more treasure minded then I am (especially if the treasure quality improved). As I understand it this actually was an issue at one point when treasure was actually hidden through out the dungeon and folks who had run before would just bee line towards the caches as soon as they hit the room.

CrowOfPyke wrote: I am also not sure how I feel about giving out rewards that are "immediate party benefits" or only adding a treasure stamp to the party card. It is forcing the Rogue player to go down the "hero path" of, dare-I-say-it, being "Lawful Good". Successfully maneuvering the puzzle box is a singular activity to the Rogue player which should have rewards/risks for that player, unlike party level puzzles which have party level rewards.

Firstly there really isn't any risk to the rogue in trying to open the box (if they were trapped in some way I could give you that argument).

Secondly I hardly see how getting an extra treasure stamp for the party card makes the rogue seem lawful good (also nothing wrong with that alignment some of the best friends play LG swashbucklers XD). Seriously though even from a role playing perspective the rogue is stealing treasure from the dungeon/monsters in most cases D&D style cases the the party will get some kind of share. Honestly the rogue has already made the greedy choice for the party by not taking the clue.

Picc wrote:

CrowOfPyke wrote: I am also not sure how I feel about giving out rewards that are "immediate party benefits" or only adding a treasure stamp to the party card. It is forcing the Rogue player to go down the "hero path" of, dare-I-say-it, being "Lawful Good". Successfully maneuvering the puzzle box is a singular activity to the Rogue player which should have rewards/risks for that player, unlike party level puzzles which have party level rewards.

Firstly there really isn't any risk to the rogue in trying to open the box (if they were trapped in some way I could give you that argument).

The risk is failure - you get nothing. You also don't participate in any party action while you are down on your knees in a dark corner trying to finaggle a puzzle box. And failing and getting nothing can be painful for the Rogue and the party, especially when the Rogue is trying to be Lawful Good and get the clue (I watched a group of players fail a room and get hammered because they didn't have the clue from the Rogue because the Rogue failed to open the puzzle box). So, yes, there are risks.

I'd me more interested in adding other class-specific puzzles. Regardless of what the treasure is in the rogue box, the rogue player still leaves the dungeon with the most loot. I understand there is a risk of damage, but that's a small price to pay.

Maybe Treasure Map *Fragments* would be okay. I don't think full Treasure Chips would be a good idea, especially since there are multiple puzzle boxes each dungeon.

Players are greedy and covetous of treasure. Just look at the ever expanding line of treasure enhancing tokens (Ring of Riches just a couple of years ago, and now the Charm of Greedy Fingers).

If the puzzle boxes consistently provided Rares or treasure chips, then it would essentially be like an additional RoR or CoGF for the Rogue.

Don't be so quick to knock even commons and uncommons. Nowadays, with trade tokens, everything potentially has *some* value.... (except those Lore tokens!).

CrowOfPyke wrote: You also don't participate in any party action while you are down on your knees in a dark corner

I dunno, I can think of a few party actions that involve that exact scenario.

Seriously, though. I don't much care about getting treasure out of the treasure boxes, though that would probably change if the quality of that treasure improved. It would be neat to see some kind of rogue-specific vanity item, like the suggested "Rogue's Guild membership." But nothing comes to mind.

Adeya wrote: I'd me more interested in adding other class-specific puzzles. Regardless of what the treasure is in the rogue box, the rogue player still leaves the dungeon with the most loot. I understand there is a risk of damage, but that's a small price to pay.

I would agree with that wholeheartedly. It has never seemed balanced that the Rogue would have 5 or 6 unique opportunities to do a class-specific function, and the other classes would never get the same opportunities. I could easily see the Rogue getting a couple of boxes, and maybe the Bard getting a chance to decipher Bard Runes and get a clue or token draw, or some other class getting a skill test and getting a clue or tokens.

Or, to think outside the Rogue Box, why is it always the exact same thing (successful Rogue test gets you a clue or token)? Why not have it be for various things? For instance, in another room it could be a Rogue test to disarm a trap, and if it fails (or if it isn't attempted), the trap goes off damaging the whole party. Or it could be to unlock a door or chest, and if it fails or isn't attempted, the party has to spend a few minutes bashing it down.

And I do agree from above, if there were treasure chips in the boxes you might get a lot of competition for the slot. I'd be OK if it was all Rares, maybe even from a mix of years. It would be neat for the Treasure Box to have some ancient treasure (and that would be cheaper for True Dungeon, as Jeff could just recycle older tokens from his hoard instead of buying new ones).