TOPIC: No more Shirt of the Nimble

Jamie Campbell wrote: well lets get some "2nd tooth"s out there while we are at it?

That's totally different. No one is proposing that Shirt of the Oaf be made available for sale again now, nor that Shirt of the Nimble remain available for sale after its originally expected OOP date of fall 2022.

What Fred proposed parallels this scenario with 7th Tooth of Cavadar and Orb of Dragonkind (Ancient), where supply ran out before the expected OOP date, and TPTB judged that it was an overall better move to temporarily provide cards instead, rather than just being permanently out of them long before anyone expected it.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=253648

Of course I can't say for sure, but there's at least a plausible case to be made that it might be an overall better move in this case as well, to avoid artificially reducing demand for the Con and Focus shirts.

David Zych wrote:

Jamie Campbell wrote: well lets get some "2nd tooth"s out there while we are at it?

That's totally different. No one is proposing that Shirt of the Oaf be made available for sale again now, nor that Shirt of the Nimble remain available for sale after its originally expected OOP date of fall 2022.

What Fred proposed parallels this scenario with 7th Tooth of Cavadar and Orb of Dragonkind (Ancient), where supply ran out before the expected OOP date, and TPTB judged that it was an overall better move to temporarily provide cards instead, rather than just being permanently out of them long before anyone expected it.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=253648

Of course I can't say for sure, but there's at least a plausible case to be made that it might be an overall better move in this case as well, to avoid artificially reducing demand for the Con and Focus shirts.

The difference is those were rewards for buying x price tier for tokens orders. This is a pyp. If the cards happen for this. It will set the stage for all. It should
Just be sold out. That’s it.

David Zych wrote: Of course I can't say for sure, but there's at least a plausible case to be made that it might be an overall better move in this case as well, to avoid artificially reducing demand for the Con and Focus shirts.

I think if you are going to tie the shirt of Nimble to demand for Shirt of Imbiber and unnamed Focus shirt then it too must be tied to the Shirt of the Oaf. So there shouldn't be more demand for either of those than there were Shirts of Oaf. Shirts of Oaf didn't sell out but Shirts of Nimble did. I doubt Jeff ordered fewer shirt of Nimble than Shirts of Oaf. He would know there would be demand for the Nimble Shirt at least equal to Shirt of Oaf by this logic.

Honestly though we don't know how many Shirts of the Oaf were ordered and how many sold. We don't know how many Shirts of the Nimble were ordered and how many sold. Attempting tie anything to how demand might be affected without all the knowledge feels suspect to me.

David Zych wrote: That's totally different. No one is proposing that Shirt of the Oaf be made available for sale again now, nor that Shirt of the Nimble remain available for sale after its originally expected OOP date of fall 2022.

What Fred proposed parallels this scenario with 7th Tooth of Cavadar and Orb of Dragonkind (Ancient), where supply ran out before the expected OOP date, and TPTB judged that it was an overall better move to temporarily provide cards instead, rather than just being permanently out of them long before anyone expected it.

It is totally different but the 7th tooth and Dragon orb is also different. Both items were not things for sell that sold out. They were rewards for purchases at different levels. Anyone purchasing tokens at though levels would expect those rewards. If an item is sold out it is not the same thing.

That said I am not lobbying for or against Shirt of the Nimble being made 'available' as Fred suggested but just pointing out that we don't actually have an example.

If the supply of Shirts of the Nimble already meets or exceeds Shirts of the Oaf (which IIRC didn't sell out), I don't see how printing more Shirts of the Nimble would likely result in more people transmuting more Arcanum items. It seems to me that they should remain sold out.

This definitely stings. I have far more shirt of the Oaf than Nimble, and was planning to order more Nimble.

I guess I didn't realize PYPs could/would run out, bit that is on me, as there is a clearly printed policy.

Jamie Campbell wrote: I think it has always been said a token PYP is available until the date it ends or until it is no longer available. Why can't we just say "sold out" and move on? Why must we continue to change patterns that exist in writing?

So, yeah, that is probably what should happen. 'sold out', sorry.

BUT, if you want to know why there is push back; because up until the past year or two, this has never been an issue. I know that I have personally relied on getting a PYP for a transmute in the last months it was available. I have had lean money years where I put off purchases and get what I need/want the next year. In fact, I am REALLY lucky that I pushed so hard to place my own 8k auction/order during pre-order, because I got 2x of this shirt in that order.

So, many of us old-timers have become accustomed to that availability, but clearly things are changing. And sadly, TD should probably stick to 'sold out' on this just to drive it home that they aren't going to make an exception every time. But I also wouldn't be surprised if they offer a certificate specifically for transmuting.

There is definitely a possible downside to leaving it as "sold out". I wonder how many people might be hesitant to buy future PYPs to make multi-year transmutes if there's a chance they won't be able to buy all of the necessary URs needed for the transmute. I know it's made me concerned about how long the Shirt of the Imbiber and the future Focus Shirt will be in stock before selling out.

I am curious about how the number of Shirts of the Oaf sold compares to the number of Shirts of the Nimble that have sold, but I doubt we'll get those numbers. I wonder which is more scarce.

Mike Steele wrote: There is definitely a possible downside to leaving it as "sold out". I wonder how many people might be hesitant to buy future PYPs to make multi-year transmutes if there's a chance they won't be able to buy all of the necessary URs needed for the transmute. I know it's made me concerned about how long the Shirt of the Imbiber and the future Focus Shirt will be in stock before selling out.

I am curious about how the number of Shirts of the Oaf sold compares to the number of Shirts of the Nimble that have sold, but I doubt we'll get those numbers. I wonder which is more scarce.

Being hesitant is what cost them getting one. So the moral of the story is if you want it. Don’t wait

BasicBraining wrote: I have faith that TPTB didn’t purposefully short the token

Your faith is well placed. We most definitely did not purposefully short this token. Not only is there no advantage for us to do so, it's not in the spirit of how this company is run.

I would gently remind folks that the 2021 token order was placed nearly a year and a half ago. There was no vaccine* then and we didn't know how popular VTD was going to be. We don't get the tokens for free. It's not economically feasible for TD to pay for tens of thousands of URs on the off chance one might prove to be popular.

*Vaccine rants in this thread will be deleted. Take that 💩 elsewhere . You've been warned.

Jamie Campbell wrote: I think it has always been said a token PYP is available until the date it ends or until it is no longer available. Why can't we just say "sold out" and move on? Why must we continue to change patterns that exist in writing?

The challenge of just saying sold out for a current PYP is it lowers total sales TD could get. Marking it as sold out immediately made the secondary market explode with shirts going for $250+. If someone was willing to pay $250 to a store for a PYP (no offense to Trent and Kirk - we love both of you) (or anyone else with a store), I'd really rather that money go directly to True Dungeon.

I'm not suggesting that OOP tokens be brought back - just that anything that is a current PYP be available so TD can max out their sales. It doesn't hurt anyone to have the item have a stand-in card until November (?) - when it officially goes out of print. I would recommend that this be true for anything that is a PYP not just the shirt. Other things, like the maps, where we were told a finite number were available and they aren't part of standard orders, I wouldn't recommend it.

Fred

I’m pretty sure that the token order page has said URs are “while supplies last,” for at least the last several years.

See post #1 for update. Thanks.