TOPIC: Are All Spells Ranged Attacks, and boostable by "Ranged" boosters?

I realized I am very confused about whether Spells are Ranged attacks or not, and whether they are boostable by "Ranged" boosters.

Here is my understanding, trying to make sense of a mass of TDb entries and rules text which I find to be apparently contradictory.

Missile Attacks

Missile attacks are attacks with physical ranged weapons, e.g. crossbows and the like. This includes thrown weapons, alchemical weapons, etc.. No spells are missile attacks (not even Magic Missile).

Some tokens refer to "physical missile weapons" - this is reminder text - there are no non-physical missile weapons.

Ranged Attacks:

For players*, Ranged attacks are attacks requiring a ranged to-hit slide:

1. All missile attacks are by definition ranged attacks.
2. Only spells requiring a slide are ranged attacks. (e.g. Cleric Spiritual Hammer, Wizard Ray of Shock)
3. Spells not requiring a slide, are not ranged attacks (e.g. Bard Sonic Dart, Cleric Searing Light, all Druid damage spells, Magic Missile)

The terms "physical ranged attacks," and "missile attacks" are synonymous.

* Monsters may have ranged attacks that resolve with a die roll.

Bardsong Bonuses

By default without additional tokens:

• Bardsong grants to-hit bonuses to ranged attacks.
• Bardsong grants to-damage bonuses to missile attacks (equivalently, physical ranged attacks).
• Bardsong does not grant any damage bonus to any spells.

This is somewhat confusing, because sometimes in TDb Bardsong bonuses are referred to for bonuses to "melee and ranged attacks" - but in fact it only grants the damage bonus to physical ranged (aka Missile) attacks.
Note: I'd love to be wrong about this.

Ranged damage bonus tokens

Tokens that grant damage bonuses only to "ranged attacks" only grant it to spells requiring an attack slide, and are not recorded on the party card. Examples:

Draco-Lich Claw Charm - does not grant bonuses to non-slid spells.

Some tokens explicitly indicate they boost both ranged attacks and spells, e.g. Blessed Wind Gloves, Blessed Tempest Gloves, Arcane Belt, Ioun Stone Banshee Prism. These add bonuses to all ranged attacks, and all spells that are not ranged attacks, and these bonuses are recorded on the party card.

TDb Stuff the Confuses me somewhat :

1. Arcane Belt and Ioun Stone Banshee Prism:
Their TDb text both say:

"Remember: “Ranged” is an umbrella term that encompasses both missiles (physical items propelled through the air) and spells (cast magical effects)."

It doesn't explicitly say one way or another which spells qualify. I think this would be better said as:

• Remember: 'Ranged' is an umbrella term that encompass any player attack requiring a ranged to-hit slide, be it missiles (physical items propelled through the air) or spells that require an attack slide (cast magical effects)

Character building tools add +2 to spell damage without regard to whether the spells are slid or auto-hit spells for these tokens.

2. Draco-Lich Claw Charm says on the token: "+2 damage with any melee or ranged attack"

But its TDb entry says:

• On a successful hit with an attack slide (melee, ranged, or spell; so long as a slide is made), this Charm deals an additional +2 damage as Darkrift.

So in this case, "Ranged" attacks only include spells that require a slide.

Character building tools do not add +2 to spell damage with this token, presumably because it only boosts slid spells.

3. Bard Instruments often say in Token DB things like:

"When used by bards, their bardsong grants each party member a total of +1 To Hit & +3 Damage (+2 To Hit & +4 Damage if the bard is 5th-level) to their melee and ranged attacks."

However Bardsong does not generally add damage to spells of any kind, slid or not - as can be seen in the TDb text for Earcuff of inspiration:

"a 4th-level bard’s bardsong would normally grant the party +1 To Hit with both physical attacks & spells requiring an attack slide as well as +1 Damage to physical attacks, but spells which do not require an attack slide are unaffected."

Bardsong should be clarified to:

+X to hit and damage in melee.
+X to hit for ranged attacks.
+X to damage for missile attacks.

(Or, just change it so it boosts spell damage as well and then you can just say: +X to hit and +X to damage for the party).

Thank you for posting this, as it's something that has confused me a lot, especially with Bardsong and various instruments. Especially when you use this filter on TokenDB to look at Damage Bonus: Spell; Classification: Musical Instrument:
tokendb.com/damage-bonus/spell/?fwp_classification=musical-instrument

It's a really odd situation to me, especially since the relic/legendary explicitly add to *Bardsong*, whereas the UC/R add to *party damage* and not just Bardsong damage. I'd love to have this clarified/standardized.

Let me see if I can help you with any of this:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Bardsong Bonuses

By default without additional tokens:

• Bardsong grants to-hit bonuses to ranged attacks.
• Bardsong grants to-damage bonuses to missile attacks (equivalently, physical ranged attacks).
• Bardsong does not grant any damage bonus to any spells.

This is somewhat confusing, because sometimes in TDb Bardsong bonuses are referred to for bonuses to "melee and ranged attacks" - but in fact it only grants the damage bonus to physical ranged (aka Missile) attacks.
Note: I'd love to be wrong about this.

We know this is right because of Earcuff of Inspiration: tokendb.com/token/earcuff-of-inspiration/

From that token text in the database:

When bardsong is in effect, all the wearer’s damage-inflicting spells gain the melee bonuses normally granted only to weapons by that bardsong. E.g., when no special instrument is used, a 4th-level bard’s bardsong would normally grant the party +1 To Hit with both physical attacks & spells requiring an attack slide as well as +1 Damage to physical attacks, but spells which do not require an attack slide are unaffected. However, while wearing an Earcuff of Inspiration, the wearer’s damage spells (that do not require an attack slide) also gain the +1 Damage bonus.

Matthew Hayward wrote: +X to hit and damage in melee.
+X to hit for ranged attacks.
+X to damage for missile attacks.
(Or, just change it so it boosts spell damage as well and then you can just say: +X to hit and +X to damage for the party).

A simple way would be to say "+X to hit and damage for slide attacks." This would include thrown weapons but not include non-slide spells, or other effects which automatically hit without a slide.

Daniel White wrote: Let me see if I can help you with any of this:

Thanks!

Matthew Hayward wrote: Some tokens refer to "physical missile weapons" - this is reminder text - there are no non-physical missile weapons.

There are physical non-missile weapons at range: thrown weapons. The bonuses which apply only to physical missile weapons don't apply to thrown ranged attacks, so it's more than just reminder text.

Matthew Hayward wrote: The terms "physical ranged attacks," and "missile attacks" are synonymous.

Not so because of thrown weapons.

Where are you getting that thrown weapons are not missile weapons. You certainly could be right - I'm just not sure where it's coming from?

If you're right than character builders are giving a ton of bonuses to thrown weapons they shouldn't be:

Missile, not ranged, boosters:
Arcane Belt
Bracers of Archery
Ranged runestones
Gloves of Archery
Gloves of Greater Archery
Holly Ring
Ioun Stone Banshee Prism
Quiver of Anointment
Lenses of Archery
Lenses of the hunter
Ring of Ringing
ring of Roaring
Ring of the Drake
Ring of the Yeti

Matthew Hayward wrote: Bardsong Bonuses

By default without additional tokens:

• Bardsong grants to-hit bonuses to ranged attacks.
• Bardsong grants to-damage bonuses to missile attacks (equivalently, physical ranged attacks).
• Bardsong does not grant any damage bonus to any spells.

This is somewhat confusing, because sometimes in TDb Bardsong bonuses are referred to for bonuses to "melee and ranged attacks" - but in fact it only grants the damage bonus to physical ranged (aka Missile) attacks.
Note: I'd love to be wrong about this.

We know this is right because of Earcuff of Inspiration: tokendb.com/token/earcuff-of-inspiration/

From that token text in the database:

When bardsong is in effect, all the wearer’s damage-inflicting spells gain the melee bonuses normally granted only to weapons by that bardsong. E.g., when no special instrument is used, a 4th-level bard’s bardsong would normally grant the party +1 To Hit with both physical attacks & spells requiring an attack slide as well as +1 Damage to physical attacks, but spells which do not require an attack slide are unaffected. However, while wearing an Earcuff of Inspiration, the wearer’s damage spells (that do not require an attack slide) also gain the +1 Damage bonus.

Matthew Hayward wrote: +X to hit and damage in melee.
+X to hit for ranged attacks.
+X to damage for missile attacks.
(Or, just change it so it boosts spell damage as well and then you can just say: +X to hit and +X to damage for the party).

A simple way would be to say "+X to hit and damage for slide attacks." This would include thrown weapons but not include spells which automatically hit without a slide.

If you're proposing a change to make it easier - that's an elegant one.

If you're saying that's what it does now, the difference I see is that formulation would include damage bonuses on slid spells, which today Bardsong doesn't grant currently.

I am not sure how I got the "thrown weapons are not missiles" thing in my head. I checked the PHB, and I think I am wrong. Your reply beat my edit fixing that xD

PHB entry on deflect missiles says:

Deflect Missiles
Monks are immune to non-magical missiles. “Nonmagical missiles” include all mundane ammunition
and mundane thrown weapons. (See What Makes a
Weapon Magical later in this guide for more specific
information regarding magical weapons.)

So, I think we can be sure that a "thrown weapon" is a "missile."

According to earcuff of inspiration's tokendb text, bardsong does add to spell slides:

E.g., when no special instrument is used, a 4th-level bard’s bardsong would normally grant the party +1 To Hit with both physical attacks & spells requiring an attack slide as well as +1 Damage to physical attacks, but spells which do not require an attack slide are unaffected.

I would still want to see the "+X to slide attacks" description change, because the current phrasing is way too confusing.

Daniel White wrote:
According to earcuff of inspiration's tokendb text, bardsong does add to spell slides:

E.g., when no special instrument is used, a 4th-level bard’s bardsong would normally grant the party +1 To Hit with both physical attacks & spells requiring an attack slide as well as +1 Damage to physical attacks, but spells which do not require an attack slide are unaffected.

I would still want to see the "+X to slide attacks" description change, because the current phrasing is way too confusing.

I just want to make sure we're on the same page:

Bardsong does add to the to-hit value of slid spells.
It does not add to the to-damage value of slid spells. (the thing you quoted refers the damage bonus to physical attacks - so unless spells are physical attacks...)

Right?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote:
According to earcuff of inspiration's tokendb text, bardsong does add to spell slides:

E.g., when no special instrument is used, a 4th-level bard’s bardsong would normally grant the party +1 To Hit with both physical attacks & spells requiring an attack slide as well as +1 Damage to physical attacks, but spells which do not require an attack slide are unaffected.

I would still want to see the "+X to slide attacks" description change, because the current phrasing is way too confusing.

I just want to make sure we're on the same page:

Bardsong does add to the to-hit value of slid spells.
It does not add to the to-damage value of slid spells.

Right?

I think it adds to both. I realize the token text on earcuff of inspiration does not say that clearly. My thinking is that the hit and damage bonuses both apply to "types" of attacks. If a slide-spell is a Ranged "type" of attack, then both the to-hit and damage bonus apply. I cannot think of a line of reasoning where the "hit" bonus would apply but the "damage" bonus would not.

Let me throw another piece of that tokenDB entry at you:

Spells that require an attack slide gain no additional benefit from Earcuff of Inspiration because bardsong already modifies slide spells–no other token required.

I think this seals it. Bardsong adds to slid spell attack and damage, both.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I realized I am very confused about whether Spells are Ranged attacks or not, and whether they are boostable by "Ranged" boosters.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any answer that will correctly interpret every token solely from its printed text; we must check individual TokenDB entries to be certain. (I suspect the terminology has evolved over the years)

Spells not requiring a slide, are not ranged attacks (e.g. Bard Sonic Dart, Cleric Searing Light, all Druid damage spells, Magic Missile)

This part is false, using the modern definition.

PHB page 76, emphasis mine: "Ranged Attack: A long-range attack made with a thrown or propelled physical weapon as well as (nearly all) magical attacks. Dexterity increases the chances of landing a blow with a ranged attack and with spell attacks that require an attack slide. Dexterity does not increase the damage dealt with any ranged attack. Strength increases the damage with a thrown attack only—not a projectile or spell."

Note PHB page 32 states "All spells requiring an attack slide are considered ranged attacks, unless specifically stated otherwise" but is silent on the question of non-slide spells, and therefore not contradictory.

So spells are ranged attacks, and things that modify "all ranged attacks" modify spells... unless their individual TokenDB entries say differently.

By default without additional tokens:

• Bardsong grants to-hit bonuses to ranged attacks.
• Bardsong grants to-damage bonuses to missile attacks (equivalently, physical ranged attacks).
• Bardsong does not grant any damage bonus to any spells.

This is somewhat confusing, because sometimes in TDb Bardsong bonuses are referred to for bonuses to "melee and ranged attacks" - but in fact it only grants the damage bonus to physical ranged (aka Missile) attacks.
Note: I'd love to be wrong about this.

You are right about this, based on the actual character card text:
"Bardsong: While singing. +2 to hit (all attack slides) and +2 damage (physical weapons only) for entire party"

I agree that the use of "ranged attacks" in e.g. tokendb.com/token/lyre-of-lore/ is confusing. But there's no possible way that adding +2 to 0 could ever yield a total of +4, so the only interpretation that makes sense is that it adds +2 to the normal bardsong damage bonus in those situations where the normal bardsong damage bonus would apply, which includes melee and (some but not all) ranged attacks.

Tokens that grant damage bonuses only to "ranged attacks" only grant it to spells requiring an attack slide

Generally false. The rule is that ranged attacks do include spells; affirmative examples include Arcane Belt and Ioun Stone Banshee Prism. tokendb.com/token/draco-lich-claw-charm/ is a notable exception (possibly because it was printed a long time ago when we were being less careful about words?) which does what it says in the TDB description (not what it says on the token).

and are not recorded on the party card

Ranged attacks include spells, so a damage bonus to all ranged attacks (e.g. Arcane Belt) is included in your party card spell damage modifier.

But it's true that things which affect only slid spells don't get recorded this way... so when you cast Ray of Shock, you have to remember to tell the DM that Draco-Lich Claw Charm gives an extra +2. Which is why my Wizard builds don't wear Draco-Lich Claw Charm.

Daniel White wrote: Let me throw another piece of that tokenDB entry at you:

Spells that require an attack slide gain no additional benefit from Earcuff of Inspiration because bardsong already modifies slide spells–no other token required.

Aw snap.

"bardsong already modifies slide spells" -- literally true but IMO very confusing in context. Bardsong does already modify slide spells, but only their to-hit.

"Spells that require an attack slide gain no additional benefit from Earcuff of Inspiration" -- ok fine, I personally think they probably should, but TDB is absolutely within its rights to state that they do not.

"because" -- I have no idea what this word is doing in that sentence.

I'm going to go write something in the TDB thread. At the very least I think there are some Bard instrument descriptions which need language tweaks.

David Zych wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I realized I am very confused about whether Spells are Ranged attacks or not, and whether they are boostable by "Ranged" boosters.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any answer that will correctly interpret every token solely from its printed text; we must check individual TokenDB entries to be certain. (I suspect the terminology has evolved over the years)

Spells not requiring a slide, are not ranged attacks (e.g. Bard Sonic Dart, Cleric Searing Light, all Druid damage spells, Magic Missile)

This part is false, using the modern definition.

PHB page 76, emphasis mine: "Ranged Attack: A long-range attack made with a thrown or propelled physical weapon as well as (nearly all) magical attacks. Dexterity increases the chances of landing a blow with a ranged attack and with spell attacks that require an attack slide. Dexterity does not increase the damage dealt with any ranged attack. Strength increases the damage with a thrown attack only—not a projectile or spell."

Note PHB page 32 states "All spells requiring an attack slide are considered ranged attacks, unless specifically stated otherwise" but is silent on the question of non-slide spells, and therefore not contradictory.

So spells are ranged attacks, and things that modify "all ranged attacks" modify spells... unless their individual TokenDB entries say differently.

By default without additional tokens:

• Bardsong grants to-hit bonuses to ranged attacks.
• Bardsong grants to-damage bonuses to missile attacks (equivalently, physical ranged attacks).
• Bardsong does not grant any damage bonus to any spells.

This is somewhat confusing, because sometimes in TDb Bardsong bonuses are referred to for bonuses to "melee and ranged attacks" - but in fact it only grants the damage bonus to physical ranged (aka Missile) attacks.
Note: I'd love to be wrong about this.

You are right about this, based on the actual character card text:
"Bardsong: While singing. +2 to hit (all attack slides) and +2 damage (physical weapons only) for entire party"

I agree that the use of "ranged attacks" in e.g. tokendb.com/token/lyre-of-lore/ is confusing. But there's no possible way that adding +2 to 0 could ever yield a total of +4, so the only interpretation that makes sense is that it adds +2 to the normal bardsong damage bonus in those situations where the normal bardsong damage bonus would apply, which includes melee and (some but not all) ranged attacks.

Tokens that grant damage bonuses only to "ranged attacks" only grant it to spells requiring an attack slide

Generally false. The rule is that ranged attacks do include spells; affirmative examples include Arcane Belt and Ioun Stone Banshee Prism. tokendb.com/token/draco-lich-claw-charm/ is a notable exception (possibly because it was printed a long time ago when we were being less careful about words?) which does what it says in the TDB description (not what it says on the token).

and are not recorded on the party card

Ranged attacks include spells, so a damage bonus to all ranged attacks (e.g. Arcane Belt) is included in your party card spell damage modifier.

But it's true that things which affect only slid spells don't get recorded this way... so when you cast Ray of Shock, you have to remember to tell the DM that Draco-Lich Claw Charm gives an extra +2. Which is why my Wizard builds don't wear Draco-Lich Claw Charm.

Daniel White wrote: Let me throw another piece of that tokenDB entry at you:

Spells that require an attack slide gain no additional benefit from Earcuff of Inspiration because bardsong already modifies slide spells–no other token required.

Aw snap.

"bardsong already modifies slide spells" -- literally true but IMO very confusing in context. Bardsong does already modify slide spells, but only their to-hit.

"Spells that require an attack slide gain no additional benefit from Earcuff of Inspiration" -- ok fine, I personally think they probably should, but TDB is absolutely within its rights to state that they do not.

"because" -- I have no idea what this word is doing in that sentence.

I'm going to go write something in the TDB thread. At the very least I think there are some Bard instrument descriptions which need language tweaks.

I'd be fine if all spells were ranged attacks.

I don't think Arcane Belt and Ioun Stone Banshee Prism tell us anything, because they explicitly say they give +2 to spell on the token.

So regardless of the ranged status of spells they should grant +2 to spell.

I'm also somewhat unconvinced by the "nearly all" magical attacks part of the PHB. I'd like it to be true, but maybe TBTP could just confirm:

Are Magic Missile, Sonic Dart, Fire Dart, and Searing Light all Ranged Attacks, and thus should get +2 damage from Draco-Lich Claw Charm, which grants "+2 damage to ... any ranged attack"

My prediction? The answer will be no.

David Zych wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Let me throw another piece of that tokenDB entry at you:

Spells that require an attack slide gain no additional benefit from Earcuff of Inspiration because bardsong already modifies slide spells–no other token required.

Aw snap.

"bardsong already modifies slide spells" -- literally true but IMO very confusing in context. Bardsong does already modify slide spells, but only their to-hit.

"Spells that require an attack slide gain no additional benefit from Earcuff of Inspiration" -- ok fine, I personally think they probably should, but TDB is absolutely within its rights to state that they do not.

"because" -- I have no idea what this word is doing in that sentence.

I'm going to go write something in the TDB thread. At the very least I think there are some Bard instrument descriptions which need language tweaks.

I do not understand where the idea bardsong only affects side spell to hit and not damage is coming from. The token text of Earcuff of Inspiration is "Your damage spells gain bardsong melee bonuses when bardsong is in effect." So, the only benefit the earcuff provides is damage.

The tokenDB entry then says Earcuff of Inspiration doesn't benefit slide spells because they already get bardsong. QED: bardsong adds damage to slide spells normally.

This is consistent with draco-lich claw charm, which adds damage to ranged attacks, and tokenDB explaining that that includes slide spells.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Are Magic Missile, Sonic Dart, Fire Dart, and Searing Light all Ranged Attacks, and thus should get +2 damage from Draco-Lich Claw Charm, which grants "+2 damage to ... any ranged attack"

My prediction? The answer will be no.

TokenDB entry for the charm says they're only "Ranged" attacks if you slide a token:

"On a successful hit with an attack slide (melee, ranged, or spell; so long as a slide is made), this Charm deals an additional +2 damage as Darkrift.

The part of the PHB which says (nearly all) seems wrong to me. It's inconsistent with everything else.