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TOPIC: Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad?

Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #1

Many a time and oft this design season people have expressed an opinion that amounts to:

* The powers on class legendaries are changeable
* We should use keyswords when describing class legendaries so their powers can be changed
* We don't need to worry about class balance now, we can wait till the character cards are redesigned, and then change the powers of class legendaries as needed

To my awareness, in the history of true dungeon the following tokens effects have been changed:

1. Ring of Stunning Fist effect changed due to Monk character ability change to de-power stunning fist. The Monk ability was changed because players figured out how to stun lock monsters, so Stunning Fist was changed to be less reliable.

2. Cloak of Shadowskin was changed from cancelling the first hit each combat, to +2 saves and cancelling one hit of the player's choice per dungeon.

3. Lenses of Divine Sight was changed from duplicating spells base and bonus, to providing a +2 bonus and letting you split the amount of healing from your base and bonus.

4. The Eldrtich Set bonus was changed in a few ways, notably level 5 from 2 pieces was granted to everyone, and +10 to heal spells from two pieces was revoked.

In some other cases, token powers have been clarified in TDb in ways that are quite different from the basic interpretation of the text on the token would give (e.g. Bracelets of the Zephyr cast the 2nd spell as a scroll, Gnomish Fizzy Lifting pack's flying ability has many restrictions).

There have probably been a few I missed, but these are "the biggies."

In each case, TBTP indicated that change was necessary for the long term health of the game as the rationale for the change.

The topic of this thread is whether the idea of changing token powers after they are in circulation is OK (or even good!), Meh, or Bad.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #2

I think changing token powers is bad.

I think it is something that should be done only as a last resort.

The reaction to some of the above changes, especially the Lenses of Divine Sight and Eldritch healing bonuses was very upsetting to lots of people. In fact it was so upsetting that the change had to be attempted twice before it stuck. A few years back TBTP changed the interaction between LoDS and Eldrtich Healing to de-power it, there was such a huge backlash from players owning these tokens that this change was undone. Then a few years later it was changed a second time and it stuck.

I think even if most people agree that the change is good/necessary/an improvement there will always be people who are bent out of shape about it - and for good reason. Some of those people probably just got the token because it did X, and now it will do Y, which they don't prefer.

TL;DR: I feel
* Errata should be a scalpel not a hammer wielded by TPTB for when things are truly a problem for the long term health of the game
* It is unwise to propose that current designs are merely provisional and should be errated in the future once some conditions pertain.
* We should not be designing tokens with the idea that their powers will change under a future character card redesign, or any other circumstance


As an exception, I would be interested in class legendaries having a Ring of Wonder like effect, where their abilities could change year to year - but this would be baked in and explicit from the get go. Not in a "today Grace means advantage of saving rolls, but in the future it could be changed to mean restore Paladin to life at 5 HP" sense.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #3

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think changing token powers is bad.

I think it is something that should be done only as a last resort.

The reaction to some of the above changes, especially the Lenses of Divine Sight and Eldritch healing bonuses was very upsetting to lots of people. In fact it was so upsetting that the change had to be attempted twice before it stuck. A few years back TBTP changed the interaction between LoDS and Eldrtich Healing to de-power it, there was such a huge backlash from players owning these tokens that this change was undone. Then a few years later it was changed a second time and it stuck.

I think even if most people agree that the change is good/necessary/an improvement there will always be people who are bent out of shape about it - and for good reason. Some of those people probably just got the token because it did X, and now it will do Y, which they don't prefer.

TL;DR: I feel
* Errata should be a scalpel not a hammer wielded by TPTB for when things are truly a problem.
* It is unwise to propose that current designs are merely provisional and should be errated in the future once some conditions pertain.
* We should not be designing tokens with the idea that their powers will change under a future character card redesign, or any other circumstance


As an exception, I would be interested in class legendaries having a Ring of Wonder like effect, where their abilities could change year to year - but this would be baked in and explicit from the get go. Not in a "today Grace means advantage of saving rolls, but in the future it could be changed to mean restore Paladin to life at 5 HP" sense.


Matthew, I could be wrong, but weren't you a pretty big advocate for changing the Lenses of Divine Sight? I was an advocate for changing the Mad Evoker's Charm.

I think there is a difference between nerfing a token and making a change to make it more powerful.

I think there's a difference between making a change when it (or it's ingredients) are still in print.

I think there's a difference to making a change to a token which contradicts the wording on the token as opposed to changing text in TokenDB.Com.

Obviously I'm in favor of making changes to the Druid Legendary. I think the Druid Relic is fine, but the Legendary is very very weak, especially when compared with other Class Legendary tokens.

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Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #4

I agree with Mike here. Nerfing powers is something that should be avoided except for when it breaks the system.

Buffing is probably generally OK, as most people aren't going to complain if their tokens get better - see horn of plenty.

Clarification / intent errata on reprint is something that is probably in the middle. Ex: Assassin's crossbow when released only critted on a 20, but a later token expanded the possible crit range. It may be possible to restore the assassins crossbow to its original intent upon a reprint, though as seen in the breakout discussion this definitely would make some people angry, it may not be as many had the token originally had a wide crit range.

Since buffing is likely to be more palatable than nerfing, lets keep that in mind for legendary design for this cycle. Lower power is likely better than huge increases in power.

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #5

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think changing token powers is bad.

I think it is something that should be done only as a last resort.

The reaction to some of the above changes, especially the Lenses of Divine Sight and Eldritch healing bonuses was very upsetting to lots of people. In fact it was so upsetting that it was revoked once before (by altering how the LoDS and Eldrtich Healing interaction worked to de-power it) and there was such a huge backlash from players with these tokens that the revokation was revoked :). Then a few years later it was changed a second time.

I think even if most people agree that the change is good/necessary/an improvement there will always be people who are bent out of shape about it - and for good reason. Some of those people probably just got the token because it did X, and now it will do Y, which they don't prefer.

TL;DR: I feel
* Errata should be a scalpel not a hammer wielded by TPTB for when things are truly a problem.
* It is unwise to propose that current designs are merely provisional and should be errated in the future once some conditions pertain.
* We should not be designing tokens with the idea that their powers will change now, or under a future character card redesign, or any other circumstance


I feel like part of the strong response to previous changes was because there was no expectation at the time for changes that large to occur. I think expectations are different now, and going through the process of token design can help adjust expectations further. Meaning that the amount of upset would be much lower. Will there still be complaints? Of course. But hopefully less. Then again, I main one of the classes that was most impacted by the dual hit of the LoDS and Eldritch set changes, so maybe my expectations have already been adjusted more than most.

I also don't see how you can expect to design a token that will be both balanced now and after class cards get adjusted, without knowing what adjustments to the class might be made. Unless you're going in with the expectation that any class adjustments will be superficial. I'd see the potential for possibly all the class Legendaries (even those that haven't been mentioned recently) and Relics to need some form of adjustment. Maybe minor, maybe larger.

The thing is, I agree that in general changing token powers should be a scalpel and that we shouldn't see it done often. I'm not saying that tokens should be getting changes every year. I'm saying that when things like character card adjustments come into play (or are planned to come into play), that is one of the triggers that actually might require more than the usual number of tokens to be adjusted.

If we aren't going to be expecting the Legendaries to change, then I suspect the the coming Cleric and Fighter Legendaries (and likely the Wizard as well) are going to be getting a lot of push from both sides. If the tokens individually are seen any more powerful than the existing class legendaries, then people are going to be complaining "but look, that token for class B individually provides more benefit than this other legendary for class A" even if the total result of that tokens when used with the rest of a current build for class B is still well behind class A. And when the token does get toned down as a result of those cries, you'll get "hmmm, now class B still contributes way less to party success than class A" which will then lead to "oh just wait, it'll be fine once classes get adjusted".

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Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #6

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think changing token powers is bad.

I think it is something that should be done only as a last resort.

The reaction to some of the above changes, especially the Lenses of Divine Sight and Eldritch healing bonuses was very upsetting to lots of people. In fact it was so upsetting that the change had to be attempted twice before it stuck. A few years back TBTP changed the interaction between LoDS and Eldrtich Healing to de-power it, there was such a huge backlash from players owning these tokens that this change was undone. Then a few years later it was changed a second time and it stuck.

I think even if most people agree that the change is good/necessary/an improvement there will always be people who are bent out of shape about it - and for good reason. Some of those people probably just got the token because it did X, and now it will do Y, which they don't prefer.

TL;DR: I feel
* Errata should be a scalpel not a hammer wielded by TPTB for when things are truly a problem.
* It is unwise to propose that current designs are merely provisional and should be errated in the future once some conditions pertain.
* We should not be designing tokens with the idea that their powers will change under a future character card redesign, or any other circumstance


As an exception, I would be interested in class legendaries having a Ring of Wonder like effect, where their abilities could change year to year - but this would be baked in and explicit from the get go. Not in a "today Grace means advantage of saving rolls, but in the future it could be changed to mean restore Paladin to life at 5 HP" sense.


Matthew, I could be wrong, but weren't you a pretty big advocate for changing the Lenses of Divine Sight? I was an advocate for changing the Mad Evoker's Charm.

I think there is a difference between nerfing a token and making a change to make it more powerful.

I think there's a difference between making a change when it (or it's ingredients) are still in print.

I think there's a difference to making a change to a token which contradicts the wording on the token as opposed to changing text in TokenDB.Com.

Obviously I'm in favor of making changes to the Druid Legendary. I think the Druid Relic is fine, but the Legendary is very very weak, especially when compared with other Class Legendary tokens.


I was in favor of the LoDS/Eldritch healing change. I believed that the situation was bad for the long term health of the game, and that was the conclusion TPTB arrived at as well.

If I thought MeC was bad for the long term health of the game, I’d be up for changing it too.

I agree powering up is less harmful than powering down - but it’s still causes harm - in this case harm to people who got rid of, or didn’t get, a powered up token they would have kept/gotten.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #7

Fiddy wrote:
I feel like part of the strong response to previous changes was because there was no expectation at the time for changes that large to occur. I think expectations are different now, and going through the process of token design can help adjust expectations further.


This is precisely what I'm reacting to.

It does indeed seem that the expectations about the stability of token effects is shifting to an idea that token designs can/should/will change. People are even proposing the future events and conditions that will trigger such changes (e.g. character card redesign).

This shift seems to have come more or less out of nowhere, this year.

TPTB have said nothing that indicates that their standards for changing token effects has changed, and the evidence is that the standard is something like: "we change tokens when the effect is proving harmful to the long term health of the game."

The shift in player perception about the liklihood of token errata to substantially change a token post publication, a thing that:
- Has happened ~5-10 times in the ~15 year history of TD
- most recently in 2018 for the 2019 token season
- and has never been used to increase the overall power/effect of a token*, **
Should be a consideration in this years design and balancing of class legendaries is concerning.

If you've been around the forums a while, you can see how player ideas morph into "TD always planed.." whicih morphs into "Jeff promised..." as time passes when in reality they were nothing more than player ideas all along. People's memories are imperfect, and the fact that the forum's search function isn't the best, and that we delete design threads doesn't help.

If we're entering a brave new world where TPTB will regularly review tokens for power level, class balance, and desirability and change their effects then TPTB will say so.

Until they do say so, I find speculation/ideation/proposals to the effect that TPTB will behave differently in the future than they have in the past with regard to token errata to be concerning - as no doubt some people will form the impression that this is possible, or even likely, nay certain - in fact they were promised it!

* Wands got more powerful that one year - and then got less powerfull the next year. After players bought wand boosting URs. Whamp-whaw. The overall result was about the same power level as they started off with, under slightly different rules.

** I guess there is also the +3 Holy Great Sword, if you count that.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #8

Fiddy wrote: I also don't see how you can expect to design a token that will be both balanced now and after class cards get adjusted, without knowing what adjustments to the class might be made.


TD is presently on (at least) it's 3rd character card design for the base classes, and has cycled through at least 5 different character cards per class when considering past cards, L4, L5, and RoSP cards.

In all of that, a token was changed exactly once as a result: Ring of Stunning Fist - because the change to Monk would have made the token do nothing at all as written.

I just don't think designing new character cards is that big of a problem, and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, if ever.

In my opinion it's much more reasonable to design future character cards in light of existing class legendaries, than it is to say "the effects of class legendaries are provisional and should be revisited when classes are redesigned."

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #9

I haven't been following the forums closely at all so was scratching my head a bit when I saw this topic posted. After reading through these initial comments I think I get it now. Sounds like some people are pushing to have Tokens changed. Not sure why though? If they are I'm now curious as to which ones people are pushing to have changed??

Oh and in response to Matt's question if I were TPTB I wouldn't make changes to a printed Tokens powers unless I felt it was game breaking in some way.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi

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Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #10

Generally agree with Matt on this one as well.

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Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #11

Rob F wrote: I haven't been following the forums closely at all so was scratching my head a bit when I saw this topic posted. After reading through these initial comments I think I get it now. Sounds like some people are pushing to have Tokens changed. Not sure why though? If they are I'm now curious as to which ones people are pushing to have changed??

Oh and in response to Matt's question if I were TPTB I wouldn't make changes to a printed Tokens powers unless I felt it was game breaking in some way.


If I understand correctly, this was an outgrowth of the Fighter Legendary discussion and the desire was not to constrain current legendary design based on a speculative class redesign. Or maybe I have it all wrong.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Changing Token Powers: OK, Meh, or Bad? 3 years 7 months ago #12

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote: I also don't see how you can expect to design a token that will be both balanced now and after class cards get adjusted, without knowing what adjustments to the class might be made.


TD is presently on (at least) it's 3rd character card design for the base classes, and has cycled through at least 5 different character cards per class when considering past cards, L4, L5, and RoSP cards.

In all of that, a token was changed exactly once as a result: Ring of Stunning Fist - because the change to Monk would have made the token do nothing at all as written.

I just don't think designing new character cards is that big of a problem, and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, if ever.

In my opinion it's much more reasonable to design future character cards in light of existing class legendaries, than it is to say "the effects of class legendaries are provisional and should be revisited when classes are redesigned."


So, based on the above, do you feel like it is ok for some class Legendaries to be more powerful, in order to shrink gaps in how well the different classes can currently contribute to team success at the Legendary level?

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