TOPIC: What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings?

Mike Steele wrote: I think there should be two lists, melee and ranged damage, and I think that the order should be different on them. Ideally a class that is near the top in one won't be near the top in the other.

That's why I think Gloves of Flying Fist is so broken. It arguably allows the Monk to be at the top of both melee and ranged damage.

This is a good idea. It would also give more design space as you could have one top tier for Ranged and another for Melee, letting each class have its preferred combat style.

I like Rogue doing damage competitive damage (perhaps not better than 2nd, 3rd place) on the sneak attack and then back down to the middle on normal attacks, encouraging flank as a viable option.

I think Wizards should get to do top/2nd place damage on the order of 1/2 times per combat to reflect the powerful but limited spellcasting ability. then similar to Rogue, drop down to mid-tier to make the choice between damage and buff/utility spells meaningful.

If Fighter/Dwarf Fighter are going to stay in the 4th-6th place range, they might need a little bump to the tanking abilities to make them more interesting and meaningful to play. Considering Fighter's 5th level perk is a re-slide, it seems martial prowess is meant to be an important part of the class. Shouldn't they be doing as much damage as the Ranger, if not more?

I'd like to see other classes have puzzle support abilities, even if they only come up from time to time on specific puzzles. For example, in a puzzle that requires moving stone blocks, a "feat of strength" test (not literal, for safety reasons) or something like that could be offered to a certain class/classes that has the potential to reduce failure damage for that specific puzzle. Maybe in an outdoor puzzle the Ranger or Druid get to take a test for a special clue.

Dave wrote: Doesn't impact your damage rankings, but thought just ran a little data against V1a to see what people were selecting as their class (since we now have that info if they select a class).

V1a - Total runs = 125 (includes Golden Ticket runs)
Tickets Available = 1250
Tickets Purchased = 1238
Classes Selected = 1195 (96.5% of tickets purchased)

Rogue - 112 / 89.6%
Druid - 110 / 88.0%
Cleric - 109 / 87.2%
Bard - 107 / 85.6%
Ranger - 106 / 84.8%
Barbarian - 101 / 80.8%
Monk - 100 / 80.0%
Paladin - 100 / 80.0%
Dwarf Fighter - 98 / 78.4%
Wizard - 89 / 71.2%
Fighter - 88 / 70.4%
Elf Wizard - 75 / 60.0%

You can reach your own conclusions. Seems to me that treasure is most appealing ability to people followed by a need to heal and keep parties alive. Fighter and Wizard classes lag. Part of that is probably due to having two classes that are much the same and part of it may be due to those classes still awaiting a legendary to put hopefully put them on par with other classes. Just my observations, for what little they're worth.

Classes selected does not necessarily equate to classes played. Seems like

Mike Steele wrote: I think there should be two lists, melee and ranged damage, and I think that the order should be different on them. Ideally a class that is near the top in one won't be near the top in the other.

That's why I think Gloves of Flying Fist is so broken. It arguably allows the Monk to be at the top of both melee and ranged damage.

Certainly ranged and melee can be looked at differently, though ranged damage is universally lower than melee damage, so the best ranged damage class should not be top melee damage (curse you GoFF).

Endgame's Ideal(?) Ranged damage ranking:

1a. Wizard - Auto hitting spells are amazing when most of the party missing against a high AC flier. Never missing combined with the high spell damage compared to ranged weapons immediately puts wizard at #1. Note, this is another reason why Wizard shouldn't be number 1 overall - no chance to miss combined with being the best ranged damage dealer needs to keep the wizard lower in the overall damage.

1b. Elf Wizard - same as wizard, but with fewer spells. Honestly, they are tied because the typical wizard builds seen at UR and higher won't ever run out of spells and can cast the best spells more than once.

3. Ranger - High native dex combined with a ranged damage bonus built it should put ranger at #3, even though he has to slide to hit.

4. Druid - see spell damage above from the wizards. Auto hitting + lots of stacking of + damage means Druid is going to end up higher than almost any class that slides.

5. Human Fighter - All the fighter does is fight, and should be top half regardless of type of combat.

6. Dwarf Fighter - still a fighter, still should be good regardless of range or melee, but slightly behind Human Fighter due to other defensive abilities.

7. Barbarian - brings a really big bow or throws things really hard. As a combat only class, the Barbarian shouldn't be any lower in the list than 7, as he still has a high STR modifier to boost STR based ranged attacks.

8. Monk - Pays for being the top melee combatant by being stuck throwing low damage shurikens at range. Still gets 2 of them, but should be below Barbarian.

9. Paladin - Still a defensive class, and probably wielding

10. Rogue - Option to sneak attack at ranged makes for a single big attack, but item restrictions limit damage. The design idea of the Rogue remains to be the DnD inspiration of the Thief - pick locks, disarm traps, and hide during combat, which translates to the rogue box for clue or treasure (or both!)

11. Cleric. Still a healer and party support, and as designed equipment options force Cleric into a low dex build, meaning praying for a ranged crit.

12. Bard. Still the main party buffer, still should be at the bottom of the list.

What would the rankings be of a buff spell was credited to the caster for its additional damage?

A 5th level bardsong with the legendary adds +4/+4. If ten pucks are slid and hit the Bards contribution is up to 40 damage plus was it does from attacking.

Anthony Barnstable wrote: 1. Human Wizard: low AC, low saves, low HP, low ability to fight in physical combat as an alternative, limited number of attacks that can be made (spells on card). Major existing benefits: can cast scrolls (great at non lethal and normal, okay on hardcore with tokens geared for it, bad at hardcore and epic. If scrolls are redesigned to make a scroll based wizard epic tier, then this factor should lower their damage output somewhat), can cast wands (great at non lethal and normal, okay on hardcore with tokens geared for it, bad at hardcore and epic. If wands are redesigned to make a wand based wizard epic tier, then this factor should lower their damage output somewhat) and better at wands than elf wizard, can polymorph (but can’t support themselves as a polymorph to successfully hit in polymorphed physical combat due to a lack of existing polymorph +to hit, making it a minimal benefit), can “auto-hit” (but at epic and nightmare, most classes are automatically hitting with their slides as long as they aren’t going off the board, so this benefit decreases with difficulty). Clearly designed to be the candle that burns bright and burns fast, the glass cannon.

2. Elf Wizard: similar logic, but has more support abilities, trades better wands for better polymorphing. Clearly designed to be the “less focused” wizard and more of the “jack of all trades” wizard. Would be great to see something like non-consumable polymorph tokens or focus boosting polymorph to hit bonus as well, that could help open a new option for elf wizard builds.

3. Ranger: medium AC, medium saves, medium HP, worse than average sliding because of the dual sliding, and minimal party support abilities. Including a drawback on dual wielding (second weapon must be usable by rogue) which further restricts equipment increases the argument for deserving higher damage output.

4. Monk: sacrifices access to armor and weapons, worse than average sliding ability because of unique dual sliding mechanic, no support abilities.

5. Barbarian: should be designed to deal more damage but not hit as accurately as the fighter, good AC, great HP, good saves (maybe should have worse saves?).

6. Fighter: the “default character”, falling squarely in the middle where they should. Designed for physical combat, designed to hit the most accurately, but should forego some damage because of this. Great AC, good HP, good saves.

7. Dwarf Fighter: a more defensive-oriented fighter, should sacrifice some damage output to compensate accordingly.

8. Rogue: gets 3 extra treasure of slightly lower quality, gets an extra interaction inside the dungeon with the rogue boxes, gets support for puzzles (clues), good support ability (flank), sneak attack should put Rogue at the single highest damage dealer for 1 round and then less damage for the remainder of combat, averaging out to about 8th highest over the course of one dungeon (3.5 combats of about 3.5 rounds each) correctly adjusted for the number of monsters that can be sneak attacked (with proper equipment?).

9. Paladin: great defensive support ability, great AC, great HP, good saves, okay support with Lay On Hands and Sacrifice. The extra defenses should move them below Fighters and Barbarian, but worse healing should put them above Cleric and Druid.

10. Druid: jack of all trades, master of none. As a jack, should be better able to deal damage than the healing-focused cleric. As a jack, should deal less damage than the damage-focused wizards and fighters. Access to scrolls, wands, polymorph (scrolls and wands again being a very minor benefit, but this is the one class with non-consumable polymorph AND with the ability to benefit the most from polymorph as a jack of all trades who can capitalize on the necessary STR boosters to make polymorph work). Has limited access to bars lore and rogue box clue. Arguably the best support due to the versatility of the support. Should have fairly medium AC, medium HP, medium saves to play into the jack of all trades nature.

11. Cleric: healing-focused character, heals instead of deals damage. Good AC, good HP, good saves.

12. Bard: deals the most damage when all bardsong damage is counted for the bard instead of the character buffed by it who is hitting, so they should seal the least damage when not counting the bardsong for anyone. Also has access to some support abilities. Previously had access to “treasure-boosting” spell in one specific form, which at the time should have been a damage-reducing consideration. Bardic lore tells parry how to better boost total party damage, should also decrease damage based on this benefit.

I agree with most of this, with two addendums:

Monk’s stunning/dazing fist is a very good support ability - especially in VTD where the odds of it triggering are 19% per round without Ring of Stunning Fist or Benrow’s, and 46% with.

Paladin’s guard ability is quite a good support ability, and their saves are better than good - I think they are in the top two?

Dergidan wrote: If Fighter/Dwarf Fighter are going to stay in the 4th-6th place range, they might need a little bump to the tanking abilities to make them more interesting and meaningful to play. Considering Fighter's 5th level perk is a re-slide, it seems martial prowess is meant to be an important part of the class. Shouldn't they be doing as much damage as the Ranger, if not more?

I think adjusting the fighters needs to be done at the card design level. I very much want to see the Fighter get +2 hit on slides at 4th level, and +2 hit and +2 damage on slides at 5th level, while the Dwarf fighter only gets the +2 to hit. It still puts the Fighter below Barbarian in the damage bonus, and the fighter is still only sliding one puck, but the bonus hit and damage at both melee and range would help define that the fighter is more offensive than the Dwarf Fighter.

Dergidan wrote: I'd like to see other classes have puzzle support abilities, even if they only come up from time to time on specific puzzles. For example, in a puzzle that requires moving stone blocks, a "feat of strength" test (not literal, for safety reasons) or something like that could be offered to a certain class/classes that has the potential to reduce failure damage for that specific puzzle. Maybe in an outdoor puzzle the Ranger or Druid get to take a test for a special clue.

Druids can talk to animals, which my party used in one of the adventures where there was a small animal (squirrel? Bird?) in the set. The squirrel gave us a clue to solving the puzzle. I don't think this one really ever comes up, but it was fun when it was done, and could be included more.

edwin wrote:

Dave wrote: Doesn't impact your damage rankings, but thought just ran a little data against V1a to see what people were selecting as their class (since we now have that info if they select a class).

V1a - Total runs = 125 (includes Golden Ticket runs)
Tickets Available = 1250
Tickets Purchased = 1238
Classes Selected = 1195 (96.5% of tickets purchased)

Rogue - 112 / 89.6%
Druid - 110 / 88.0%
Cleric - 109 / 87.2%
Bard - 107 / 85.6%
Ranger - 106 / 84.8%
Barbarian - 101 / 80.8%
Monk - 100 / 80.0%
Paladin - 100 / 80.0%
Dwarf Fighter - 98 / 78.4%
Wizard - 89 / 71.2%
Fighter - 88 / 70.4%
Elf Wizard - 75 / 60.0%

You can reach your own conclusions. Seems to me that treasure is most appealing ability to people followed by a need to heal and keep parties alive. Fighter and Wizard classes lag. Part of that is probably due to having two classes that are much the same and part of it may be due to those classes still awaiting a legendary to put hopefully put them on par with other classes. Just my observations, for what little they're worth.

Classes selected does not necessarily equate to classes played. Seems like

i would never take the numbers as absolute, but in the absence of any better data I think they are pretty good indicators of trends.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Paladin’s guard ability is quite a good support ability, and their saves are better than good - I think they are in the top two?

When was the last time Paladin's guard came up for you? Running every adventure since 2015, I've never seen guard happen, and in VTD there wasn't a single guard able attack. From a character design and balance standpoint, guard needs to affect the paladin's damage, but I don't think it actually ever triggers based on dungeon design.

As for saves, I'm pretty sure its 1) Monk 2) Druid, 3) Paladin.

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Paladin’s guard ability is quite a good support ability, and their saves are better than good - I think they are in the top two?

When was the last time Paladin's guard came up for you? Running every adventure since 2015, I've never seen guard happen, and in VTD there wasn't a single guard able attack. From a character design and balance standpoint, guard needs to affect the paladin's damage, but I don't think it actually ever triggers based on dungeon design.

As for saves, I'm pretty sure its 1) Monk 2) Druid, 3) Paladin.

What does “never seen guard happen” Mean? Never played with a Paladin? Never had a Paladin declare guard? Never been in a fight where there were melee attacks?

In my view when an intelligent monster avoids melee attacking a guarded target it would have otherwise, then guard “has happened” - just as when any monster attempts an melee attack against a guarded target.

I will bet you a shiny 100 GP piece there were guardable attacks in V1a.

Guard comes up a couple.rooms per year. Whether the DM targets the Paladin or guarded characters is another matter.

Wizards do have some support spells. Just because someone doesnt like them or they arent "useful" at the highest tiers doesn't mean they should be completely discounted.

Any discussion like this needs to include the idea that there are different levels of playing the game.

I don't necessarily agree that each level should have the same relative damage outputs, as other abilities trigger more often, support spells have more value, etc.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Paladin’s guard ability is quite a good support ability, and their saves are better than good - I think they are in the top two?

When was the last time Paladin's guard came up for you? Running every adventure since 2015, I've never seen guard happen, and in VTD there wasn't a single guard able attack. From a character design and balance standpoint, guard needs to affect the paladin's damage, but I don't think it actually ever triggers based on dungeon design.

As for saves, I'm pretty sure its 1) Monk 2) Druid, 3) Paladin.

What does “never seen guard happen” Mean? Never played with a Paladin? Never had a Paladin declare guard? Never been in a fight where there were melee attacks?

I will bet you a shiny 100 GP piece there were guardable attacks in V1a.

Have you ever seen an attack declared on a guarded character that is redirected to a Paladin on a 10 man run?

We’ve run with a paladin almost every run since we started (including running Paladin myself a couple years till I locked in on cleric). I have never seen the guarded character attacked - it almost happened once against the salamander (2016?) where the DM declared an attack on the guarded wizard, but when we called out the guard, the DM switched the attack to another Non wizard, non Paladin character.

In our run of v1a, all attacks we encountered were AoE, excluding some magic missiles that couldn’t be guarded anyway. Even if there had been a melee attack that used AC, I am doubtful that the guarded character would have been attacked.

edwin wrote:

Dave wrote: Doesn't impact your damage rankings, but thought just ran a little data against V1a to see what people were selecting as their class (since we now have that info if they select a class).

V1a - Total runs = 125 (includes Golden Ticket runs)
Tickets Available = 1250
Tickets Purchased = 1238
Classes Selected = 1195 (96.5% of tickets purchased)

Rogue - 112 / 89.6%
Druid - 110 / 88.0%
Cleric - 109 / 87.2%
Bard - 107 / 85.6%
Ranger - 106 / 84.8%
Barbarian - 101 / 80.8%
Monk - 100 / 80.0%
Paladin - 100 / 80.0%
Dwarf Fighter - 98 / 78.4%
Wizard - 89 / 71.2%
Fighter - 88 / 70.4%
Elf Wizard - 75 / 60.0%

You can reach your own conclusions. Seems to me that treasure is most appealing ability to people followed by a need to heal and keep parties alive. Fighter and Wizard classes lag. Part of that is probably due to having two classes that are much the same and part of it may be due to those classes still awaiting a legendary to put hopefully put them on par with other classes. Just my observations, for what little they're worth.

Classes selected does not necessarily equate to classes played. Seems like

We had to pick classes for ghosts. The overall impact might not be significant, but it is present.