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TOPIC: What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings?

What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #1

I often read that X class should do more damage because Y class is higher in the list and shouldn't be. Good, balanced, game design principle would lead us to believe there is a desirable ranking of which class should be doing more damage than another class. While there may be some minor variation at different rarity levels, we should still have a general ranking without drastic change from half slots empty to all rare and ultra rare, to BiS.

Without this guidance, we end up in a loop of permanently creeping damage to put a different class at the top of the list. This isn't healthy for the overall design as it makes adjusting monster HP difficult at given difficulties over time - what is good this year is bad next year when 4 classes gain big damage bonuses to surpass the previous top class. The question is, what the desirable ranking of damage by class? With this list in mind, guidance is much easier for designing new tokens. Ex: No, you really can't give that to the fighter as it would push the fighter into a top 3 damage dealer, and it shouldn't be there. Additionally, this can be taken into account for new class cards . Ex: The ranger really needs a penalty somewhere to pull it down a few spots, or the wizard really needs a scaling skill or more damaging slide spells to put it at the correct damage level.

Ideal damage ranking, Endgame edition:

1. Monk - trades access to weapons and armor for 2 attacks, but with a more physically challenging slide.
2. Barbarian - trades some armor and some weapons for a bonus to 2H weapons, and has a high base Str.
3. Wizard - Has a limited number of spell, but is unlikely to run out on a normal dungeon run, AND doesn't have to worry about missing due to auto hitting spells
4. Ranger - Limited in some gear, Best ranged fighter, 2 weapon attack with sliding skill drawback, and ideally another dual wield drawback
5. Human Fighter - Has full access to weapons and armor, and has a buff to accuracy.
6. Dwarf Fighter - Taunting / Party Tank keeps this guy lower in the rankings
7. Elf wizard - more supporting wizard, still doesn't need to worry about monster AC.
8. Paladin - Guard / party tank, that also gets a little healing on the side. Cleric with a sword.
9. Druid - Jack of all trades, master of none
10. Rogue - primarily a class that is all about the rogue box in puzzle rooms, and the only party support available in those rooms. In combat, all about 1 big hit with sneak attack, then minimal damage after that. Is higher on the list if combat only lasts 1 round, but monster design hopefully avoids 1 round combats.
11. Cleric - healing and party support leave the cleric near the bottom of the damage list
12. Bard - biggest party support has lowest direct damage capability

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Last edit: by Endgame.

What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #2

If that's what were looking for, I'm thinking you're close. I like Druid a little higher than dwarf fighter and paladin (taking the hits prevents one from dishing them out).

I also like rogue ahead of those 2.

1. Monk
2. Barbarian
3. Wizard
4. Ranger
5. Elf Wizard
6. Fighter
7. Druid
8. Rogue
9. Dwarf Fighter
10. Paladin
11. Cleric
12. Bard

Yes, I hate how low I had to put Paladin there.

Adding in the already existing legendaries definitely makes rogue a lot higher though. Not sure how to reconcile that.
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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #3

I think you are starting from a false premise that the reason for power creep is that different classes cycle through the top damage spot, and then token design reacts when players of other classes notice that.

This is not the case.

While classes move around year by year Slightly under various models, the Monk and Ranger have essentially tied for #1s for as long as I can remember.

The proximal cause of power creep is the continual printing of more and more powerful, in more and more slots, usable by all, Stackable STR and Melee boosting tokens (from which Monks And Rangers does them twice the benefit as other classes more or less).

Simply go through TokenDB year by year and evaluate how the pool of STR and Melee boosters grows to verify this.

Relatively recently (~4 years?) spell and ranged damage has started getting similar treatment, but still lags far behind in terms of the total pool.

Simply go to tokenDB and count how many slots offer Melee damage, ranged damage, and spell damage boosts at uncommon, rare, and UR to verify this.

The ultimate cause of power creep I am uncertain about - although I suspect it relates to selling more tokens at the UR tier. One would have to get the inside scoop from Jeff / Druegar to know for certain.

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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #4

Here are my preferred class rankings for damage output, and why.

Let’s start with why:

1. TD wants to sell tokens.
2. People buy tokens predominantly to boost their combat capabilities.
3. There are only 6-12 rounds of combat in a typical dungeon - things that boost combat damage, and things that grant actions/let you do more with an action are more desirable than things that grant defenses.

Design goal: No class should be better than another class at everything players want to do (if so, there is no reason for people to play the lesser class).

So it’s OK to have an SUV, a tractor, and a corvette.

It’s not Ok to have a corvette, and Porsche, and a Ferrari.

Here are the things people want to do, ordered but what I believe the general preference is:

1. Gather treasure.
2. Deal damage / kill monsters.
3. Avoid / resist monster attacks and effects.
4. Boost the party / hinder monsters.

To answer the question of what order the classes should go in with regard to #2 - one should also evaluate where they stand / should stand in #1, 3 and 4.

Let’s do that quickly:

#1 Treasure collection:
1. Rogue
2. All other classes tied.

#3 Avoid / Resist attacks

Tier one: Paladin (great saves, AC)

Tier two: Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighters, Monk (mix of high HP, great saves, high AC, and class features like evasion / feather fall etc.)

Tier three: Bard, Ranger (Decent AC/saves)

Tier four: Rogue (slightly worse AC, saves)

Tier five: Wizards (worst saves, worst AC, worst HP)

#4 Supporting the party / hindering the monster

1. Bard (Bardsong, monster lore, buff spells)
2. Cleric (bless, prayer, restore abilities, healing
3. Tie Paladin (guard, lay on hands, remove disease) and Druid (healing, defensive spells)
5. Tie Elf Wizard (Alertness), Rogue (puzzle clue, flank)
7. Tie Dwarf Fighter (taunt), Wizard (buff spells), Ranger (healing)
10. Tie Barbarian, Fighter, Monk

Summing all that up, the damage tiers should be:

Tier one:
Wizards (compensates low defenses, low support)

Tier Two:
Ranger (compensate for medium defenses, low support)

Tier three:
Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Rogue (compensate for high defenses, worst support)

(Rogue could move up one - depends on how much you value the treasure)

Tier four:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin (compensate for awesome support and/or defenses)

(Druid could move up depending on how you value healing and if we ever get a reprint or new armor set similar to Dragonscale).

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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #5

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my preferred class rankings for damage output, and why.

Let’s start with why:

1. TD wants to sell tokens.
2. People buy tokens predominantly to boost their combat capabilities.
3. There are only 6-12 rounds of combat in a typical dungeon - things that boost combat damage, and things that grant actions/let you do more with an action are more desirable than things that grant defenses.

Design goal: No class should be better than another class at everything players want to do (if so, there is no reason for people to play the lesser class).

So it’s OK to have an SUV, a tractor, and a corvette.

It’s not Ok to have a corvette, and Porsche, and a Ferrari.

Here are the things people want to do, ordered but what I believe the general preference is:

1. Gather treasure.
2. Deal damage / kill monsters.
3. Avoid / resist monster attacks and effects.
4. Boost the party / hinder monsters.

To answer the question of what order the classes should go in with regard to #2 - one should also evaluate where they stand / should stand in #1, 3 and 4.

Let’s do that quickly:

#1 Treasure collection:
1. Rogue
2. All other classes tied.

#3 Avoid / Resist attacks

Tier one: Paladin (great saves, AC)

Tier two: Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighters, Monk (mix of high HP, great saves, high AC, and class features like evasion / feather fall etc.)

Tier three: Bard, Ranger (Decent AC/saves)

Tier four: Rogue (slightly worse AC, saves)

Tier five: Wizards (worst saves, worst AC, worst HP)

#4 Supporting the party / hindering the monster

1. Bard (Bardsong, monster lore, buff spells)
2. Cleric (bless, prayer, restore abilities, healing
3. Tie Paladin (guard, lay on hands, remove disease) and Druid (healing, defensive spells)
5. Tie Elf Wizard (Alertness), Rogue (puzzle clue, flank)
7. Tie Dwarf Fighter (taunt), Wizard (buff spells), Ranger (healing)
10. Tie Barbarian, Fighter, Monk

Summing all that up, the damage tiers should be:

Tier one:
Wizards (compensates low defenses, low support)

Tier Two:
Ranger (compensate for medium defenses, low support)

Tier three:
Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Rogue (compensate for high defenses, worst support)

(Rogue could move up one - depends on how much you value the treasure)

Tier four:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin (compensate for awesome support and/or defenses)

(Druid could move up depending on how you value healing and if we ever get a reprint or new armor set similar to Dragonscale).


I like this. I play Wizard and just finished playing VTD felt like I was playing on Normal and everyone else was playing on Nightmare. It would have been nice to be able to contribute more damage to the party total.
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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #6

Bob Chasan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my preferred class rankings for damage output, and why.

Let’s start with why:

1. TD wants to sell tokens.
2. People buy tokens predominantly to boost their combat capabilities.
3. There are only 6-12 rounds of combat in a typical dungeon - things that boost combat damage, and things that grant actions/let you do more with an action are more desirable than things that grant defenses.

Design goal: No class should be better than another class at everything players want to do (if so, there is no reason for people to play the lesser class).

So it’s OK to have an SUV, a tractor, and a corvette.

It’s not Ok to have a corvette, and Porsche, and a Ferrari.

Here are the things people want to do, ordered but what I believe the general preference is:

1. Gather treasure.
2. Deal damage / kill monsters.
3. Avoid / resist monster attacks and effects.
4. Boost the party / hinder monsters.

To answer the question of what order the classes should go in with regard to #2 - one should also evaluate where they stand / should stand in #1, 3 and 4.

Let’s do that quickly:

#1 Treasure collection:
1. Rogue
2. All other classes tied.

#3 Avoid / Resist attacks

Tier one: Paladin (great saves, AC)

Tier two: Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighters, Monk (mix of high HP, great saves, high AC, and class features like evasion / feather fall etc.)

Tier three: Bard, Ranger (Decent AC/saves)

Tier four: Rogue (slightly worse AC, saves)

Tier five: Wizards (worst saves, worst AC, worst HP)

#4 Supporting the party / hindering the monster

1. Bard (Bardsong, monster lore, buff spells)
2. Cleric (bless, prayer, restore abilities, healing
3. Tie Paladin (guard, lay on hands, remove disease) and Druid (healing, defensive spells)
5. Tie Elf Wizard (Alertness), Rogue (puzzle clue, flank)
7. Tie Dwarf Fighter (taunt), Wizard (buff spells), Ranger (healing)
10. Tie Barbarian, Fighter, Monk

Summing all that up, the damage tiers should be:

Tier one:
Wizards (compensates low defenses, low support)

Tier Two:
Ranger (compensate for medium defenses, low support)

Tier three:
Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Rogue (compensate for high defenses, worst support)

(Rogue could move up one - depends on how much you value the treasure)

Tier four:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin (compensate for awesome support and/or defenses)

(Druid could move up depending on how you value healing and if we ever get a reprint or new armor set similar to Dragonscale).


I like this. I play Wizard and just finished playing VTD felt like I was playing on Normal and everyone else was playing on Nightmare. It would have been nice to be able to contribute more damage to the party total.


I know that's the point of this thread, but comparing classes with and without their legendary makes a big difference.

In particular, Barbarian, Monk and Rogue are incredibly powerful now.
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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #7

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It would be interesting but probably too difficult to consider different types of builds as well. Ranged ranger versus melee ranger. Glass cannon human wizard versus polymorphing elf wizard. Offensive cleric versus healer/protector cleric.
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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #8

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my preferred class rankings for damage output, and why.

Let’s start with why:

1. TD wants to sell tokens.
2. People buy tokens predominantly to boost their combat capabilities.
3. There are only 6-12 rounds of combat in a typical dungeon - things that boost combat damage, and things that grant actions/let you do more with an action are more desirable than things that grant defenses.

Design goal: No class should be better than another class at everything players want to do (if so, there is no reason for people to play the lesser class).

So it’s OK to have an SUV, a tractor, and a corvette.

It’s not Ok to have a corvette, and Porsche, and a Ferrari.

Here are the things people want to do, ordered but what I believe the general preference is:

1. Gather treasure.
2. Deal damage / kill monsters.
3. Avoid / resist monster attacks and effects.
4. Boost the party / hinder monsters.

To answer the question of what order the classes should go in with regard to #2 - one should also evaluate where they stand / should stand in #1, 3 and 4.

Let’s do that quickly:

#1 Treasure collection:
1. Rogue
2. All other classes tied.

#3 Avoid / Resist attacks

Tier one: Paladin (great saves, AC)

Tier two: Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighters, Monk (mix of high HP, great saves, high AC, and class features like evasion / feather fall etc.)

Tier three: Bard, Ranger (Decent AC/saves)

Tier four: Rogue (slightly worse AC, saves)

Tier five: Wizards (worst saves, worst AC, worst HP)

#4 Supporting the party / hindering the monster

1. Bard (Bardsong, monster lore, buff spells)
2. Cleric (bless, prayer, restore abilities, healing
3. Tie Paladin (guard, lay on hands, remove disease) and Druid (healing, defensive spells)
5. Tie Elf Wizard (Alertness), Rogue (puzzle clue, flank)
7. Tie Dwarf Fighter (taunt), Wizard (buff spells), Ranger (healing)
10. Tie Barbarian, Fighter, Monk

Summing all that up, the damage tiers should be:

Tier one:
Wizards (compensates low defenses, low support)

Tier Two:
Ranger (compensate for medium defenses, low support)

Tier three:
Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Rogue (compensate for high defenses, worst support)

(Rogue could move up one - depends on how much you value the treasure)

Tier four:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin (compensate for awesome support and/or defenses)

(Druid could move up depending on how you value healing and if we ever get a reprint or new armor set similar to Dragonscale).


I like this. I play Wizard and just finished playing VTD felt like I was playing on Normal and everyone else was playing on Nightmare. It would have been nice to be able to contribute more damage to the party total.


I know that's the point of this thread, but comparing classes with and without their legendary makes a big difference.

In particular, Barbarian, Monk and Rogue are incredibly powerful now.


I definitely agree on Barbarian and Monk but does the new Legendary for Rogue put it on par with the Ranger or is it still below Ranger on the damage potential

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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #9

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my preferred class rankings for damage output, and why.

Let’s start with why:

1. TD wants to sell tokens.
2. People buy tokens predominantly to boost their combat capabilities.
3. There are only 6-12 rounds of combat in a typical dungeon - things that boost combat damage, and things that grant actions/let you do more with an action are more desirable than things that grant defenses.

Design goal: No class should be better than another class at everything players want to do (if so, there is no reason for people to play the lesser class).

So it’s OK to have an SUV, a tractor, and a corvette.

It’s not Ok to have a corvette, and Porsche, and a Ferrari.

Here are the things people want to do, ordered but what I believe the general preference is:

1. Gather treasure.
2. Deal damage / kill monsters.
3. Avoid / resist monster attacks and effects.
4. Boost the party / hinder monsters.

To answer the question of what order the classes should go in with regard to #2 - one should also evaluate where they stand / should stand in #1, 3 and 4.

Let’s do that quickly:

#1 Treasure collection:
1. Rogue
2. All other classes tied.

#3 Avoid / Resist attacks

Tier one: Paladin (great saves, AC)

Tier two: Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighters, Monk (mix of high HP, great saves, high AC, and class features like evasion / feather fall etc.)

Tier three: Bard, Ranger (Decent AC/saves)

Tier four: Rogue (slightly worse AC, saves)

Tier five: Wizards (worst saves, worst AC, worst HP)

#4 Supporting the party / hindering the monster

1. Bard (Bardsong, monster lore, buff spells)
2. Cleric (bless, prayer, restore abilities, healing
3. Tie Paladin (guard, lay on hands, remove disease) and Druid (healing, defensive spells)
5. Tie Elf Wizard (Alertness), Rogue (puzzle clue, flank)
7. Tie Dwarf Fighter (taunt), Wizard (buff spells), Ranger (healing)
10. Tie Barbarian, Fighter, Monk

Summing all that up, the damage tiers should be:

Tier one:
Wizards (compensates low defenses, low support)

Tier Two:
Ranger (compensate for medium defenses, low support)

Tier three:
Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Rogue (compensate for high defenses, worst support)

(Rogue could move up one - depends on how much you value the treasure)

Tier four:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin (compensate for awesome support and/or defenses)

(Druid could move up depending on how you value healing and if we ever get a reprint or new armor set similar to Dragonscale).


I would definitely agree on something that examined class benefits like this and was used to decide where classes should fall on the damage spectrum that could then be used to gauge current damage vs expected damage tier and design things in process.

I wouldn't agree on penalizing the Rogue over it's potential +3 treasure which is already related to it's ranking on party benefit. Double dipping penalties for the same ability is harsh. I'd move them up a tier.

I'd probably move Ranger up a tier on avoidance/resistance due to class specific bonuses on a few tokens boosting avoidance and it's small amount of healing. Plus it's built in bonuses to both Melee (2 pucks) and Ranged (+4 damage)

Overall tho I do like the idea

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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #10

1. Human Wizard: low AC, low saves, low HP, low ability to fight in physical combat as an alternative, limited number of attacks that can be made (spells on card). Major existing benefits: can cast scrolls (great at non lethal and normal, okay on hardcore with tokens geared for it, bad at hardcore and epic. If scrolls are redesigned to make a scroll based wizard epic tier, then this factor should lower their damage output somewhat), can cast wands (great at non lethal and normal, okay on hardcore with tokens geared for it, bad at hardcore and epic. If wands are redesigned to make a wand based wizard epic tier, then this factor should lower their damage output somewhat) and better at wands than elf wizard, can polymorph (but can’t support themselves as a polymorph to successfully hit in polymorphed physical combat due to a lack of existing polymorph +to hit, making it a minimal benefit), can “auto-hit” (but at epic and nightmare, most classes are automatically hitting with their slides as long as they aren’t going off the board, so this benefit decreases with difficulty). Clearly designed to be the candle that burns bright and burns fast, the glass cannon.

2. Elf Wizard: similar logic, but has more support abilities, trades better wands for better polymorphing. Clearly designed to be the “less focused” wizard and more of the “jack of all trades” wizard. Would be great to see something like non-consumable polymorph tokens or focus boosting polymorph to hit bonus as well, that could help open a new option for elf wizard builds.

3. Ranger: medium AC, medium saves, medium HP, worse than average sliding because of the dual sliding, and minimal party support abilities. Including a drawback on dual wielding (second weapon must be usable by rogue) which further restricts equipment increases the argument for deserving higher damage output.

4. Monk: sacrifices access to armor and weapons, worse than average sliding ability because of unique dual sliding mechanic, no support abilities.

5. Barbarian: should be designed to deal more damage but not hit as accurately as the fighter, good AC, great HP, good saves (maybe should have worse saves?).

6. Fighter: the “default character”, falling squarely in the middle where they should. Designed for physical combat, designed to hit the most accurately, but should forego some damage because of this. Great AC, good HP, good saves.

7. Dwarf Fighter: a more defensive-oriented fighter, should sacrifice some damage output to compensate accordingly.

8. Rogue: gets 3 extra treasure of slightly lower quality, gets an extra interaction inside the dungeon with the rogue boxes, gets support for puzzles (clues), good support ability (flank), sneak attack should put Rogue at the single highest damage dealer for 1 round and then less damage for the remainder of combat, averaging out to about 8th highest over the course of one dungeon (3.5 combats of about 3.5 rounds each) correctly adjusted for the number of monsters that can be sneak attacked (with proper equipment?).

9. Paladin: great defensive support ability, great AC, great HP, good saves, okay support with Lay On Hands and Sacrifice. The extra defenses should move them below Fighters and Barbarian, but worse healing should put them above Cleric and Druid.

10. Druid: jack of all trades, master of none. As a jack, should be better able to deal damage than the healing-focused cleric. As a jack, should deal less damage than the damage-focused wizards and fighters. Access to scrolls, wands, polymorph (scrolls and wands again being a very minor benefit, but this is the one class with non-consumable polymorph AND with the ability to benefit the most from polymorph as a jack of all trades who can capitalize on the necessary STR boosters to make polymorph work). Has limited access to bars lore and rogue box clue. Arguably the best support due to the versatility of the support. Should have fairly medium AC, medium HP, medium saves to play into the jack of all trades nature.

11. Cleric: healing-focused character, heals instead of deals damage. Good AC, good HP, good saves.

12. Bard: deals the most damage when all bardsong damage is counted for the bard instead of the character buffed by it who is hitting, so they should seal the least damage when not counting the bardsong for anyone. Also has access to some support abilities. Previously had access to “treasure-boosting” spell in one specific form, which at the time should have been a damage-reducing consideration. Bardic lore tells parry how to better boost total party damage, should also decrease damage based on this benefit.
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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #11

I think there should be two lists, melee and ranged damage, and I think that the order should be different on them. Ideally a class that is near the top in one won't be near the top in the other.

That's why I think Gloves of Flying Fist is so broken. It arguably allows the Monk to be at the top of both melee and ranged damage.

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What are the Ideal Class Damage Rankings? 3 years 7 months ago #12

Doesn't impact your damage rankings, but thought just ran a little data against V1a to see what people were selecting as their class (since we now have that info if they select a class).

V1a - Total runs = 125 (includes Golden Ticket runs)
Tickets Available = 1250
Tickets Purchased = 1238
Classes Selected = 1195 (96.5% of tickets purchased)

Rogue - 112 / 89.6%
Druid - 110 / 88.0%
Cleric - 109 / 87.2%
Bard - 107 / 85.6%
Ranger - 106 / 84.8%
Barbarian - 101 / 80.8%
Monk - 100 / 80.0%
Paladin - 100 / 80.0%
Dwarf Fighter - 98 / 78.4%
Wizard - 89 / 71.2%
Fighter - 88 / 70.4%
Elf Wizard - 75 / 60.0%

You can reach your own conclusions. Seems to me that treasure is most appealing ability to people followed by a need to heal and keep parties alive. Fighter and Wizard classes lag. Part of that is probably due to having two classes that are much the same and part of it may be due to those classes still awaiting a legendary to put hopefully put them on par with other classes. Just my observations, for what little they're worth.

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