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TOPIC: Consistency of Focus Items

Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 2 days ago #25

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @MikeSteele - and I’d prefer poly be removed from all focus items. It never made sense me that poly damage includes focus and STR - feels very double-dipping, and contributes to the class being OP.

That or, as a second choice, add Turning.


+1 to both


I'm not sure where this "Druid is overpowered" narrative is coming from. There have been several detailed damage comparisons done recently, and I don't think the Druid has ever been near the top of them. Monk / Ranger / Wizards always seem near the top, as far as I can recall.


Druid has ALWAYS been overpowered (much more so in the early days).

It was because Druid had a special place in Jeff's heart so he treated it especially well.

And some Druid players (like you) consistently try to downplay the power level of the Druid.

BTW: Overpowered isn't simply defined by damage output.


I'm not saying it's not a powerful or versatile class, I'm disagreeing that it's overpowered. It's not really the best at anything. To me, in True Dungeon, the one statistic that means more than anything else is damage dealing capability, and the Druid is in the middle of the pack, per Matthew's own analysis. To me, it's clear that the class that's the most overpowered is the Monk, and it's not even close. The Monk can have the best damage at both melee and ranged.

I think there's a tendency to think that historically the Druid has been overpowered, and to maintain that belief even if the current facts don't back it up. One comment on the thread even mentioned the Eldritch rules that were recently changed. You yourself said it was much more overpowered in the early days, but I'm not talking about the early days, I'm talking about right now. And any class that hasn't gotten its class specific legendary is going to get another boost.

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 2 days ago #26

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Endgame wrote: While I haven't done the math, if what I'm reading is completely accurate, I'm not sure it says a lot to be near last in a bunch of different roles. Typically, that just means its best to take a different character that specializes in a specific role and actually does the job really well instead of 2 jobs poorly.


Except that both damage and healing spells benefit from focus, making the druid quite an excellent spell damage dealer (with up to rare wands as well through MoMM) and healing after the combat rounds are over.

Ultimately it's a great, strong class with many options and ways to build. It's a lot of fun, and quite powerful.


The Druid very rarely has access to Rare wands.

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 2 days ago #27

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: If we're talking about changes, all changes have to be on the table.


As for OP, I dont think it's that simple. Monks and Rangers tend to be more "one trick ponies"
Druid can heal, do spell damage (with surge), or polymorph and do melee. The versatility counts for a lot.


No matter how you combine their melee, polymorph, and spell damage i still don't think they're at the top of the damage chart. It's not like they can do it all at once. At least I've never seen an analysis that showed that. Any actions healing take away from dealing damage.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem reasonable to call Druids overpowered when there are several classes that deal more damage. I can understand calling Monks, Rangers, and/or Wizards overpowered.


At BiS my 2019 numbers had Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian in the top 3.

Wizards with 4, 5 and Spell Druid was 7. The gap between Wizard and Spell Druid was: 13 points over the course of the dungeon (388 vs 375).

5th level Druids compared with 5th level Wizards also get:
+9 HP
+4 Fort
+1 ReFX
+4 Will
+2 STR
+2 DEX
Better weapons and armor
1 more second level spell
1 more third level spell


So, the Druid is the seventh best at dealing damage out of 12 classes. That doesn't seem overpowered to me. And the Wizards don't have their class specific legendary yet, which will probably increase the gap between Wizard and Druid.


If damage dealing is the ONLY metric you use, sure, they aren't.
Again, versatility, options, other things that Matthew and Eric mentioned all show the power of the Druid (and that doesn't mention the eldritch benefits before the recent changes).


While I haven't done the math, if what I'm reading is completely accurate, I'm not sure it says a lot to be near last in a bunch of different roles. Typically, that just means its best to take a different character that specializes in a specific role and actually does the job really well instead of 2 jobs poorly.


Except... The Druid isn't "near last" in a bunch of different roles. It is second (or third) in a bunch of different roles.

It doesn't do 2 jobs poorly. It does several jobs at marginally less than the best possible. And most of those in 1st place roles don't easily have something to fall back on.

For example, in rooms where spell damage is nerfed, the Wizards don't have much to fall back on, whereas the Druids can usually keep dealing significant damage via melee/polymorph. When physical combat gets nerfed in a room, Druids blast away while a Monk/Ranger may be dealing less damage. I'm not sure the straight damage comparison takes this into consideration.

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Last edit: by Fiddy.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 2 days ago #28

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: If we're talking about changes, all changes have to be on the table.


As for OP, I dont think it's that simple. Monks and Rangers tend to be more "one trick ponies"
Druid can heal, do spell damage (with surge), or polymorph and do melee. The versatility counts for a lot.


No matter how you combine their melee, polymorph, and spell damage i still don't think they're at the top of the damage chart. It's not like they can do it all at once. At least I've never seen an analysis that showed that. Any actions healing take away from dealing damage.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem reasonable to call Druids overpowered when there are several classes that deal more damage. I can understand calling Monks, Rangers, and/or Wizards overpowered.


At BiS my 2019 numbers had Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian in the top 3.

Wizards with 4, 5 and Spell Druid was 7. The gap between Wizard and Spell Druid was: 13 points over the course of the dungeon (388 vs 375).

5th level Druids compared with 5th level Wizards also get:
+9 HP
+4 Fort
+1 ReFX
+4 Will
+2 STR
+2 DEX
Better weapons and armor
1 more second level spell
1 more third level spell


So, the Druid is the seventh best at dealing damage out of 12 classes. That doesn't seem overpowered to me. And the Wizards don't have their class specific legendary yet, which will probably increase the gap between Wizard and Druid.


If damage dealing is the ONLY metric you use, sure, they aren't.
Again, versatility, options, other things that Matthew and Eric mentioned all show the power of the Druid (and that doesn't mention the eldritch benefits before the recent changes).


While I haven't done the math, if what I'm reading is completely accurate, I'm not sure it says a lot to be near last in a bunch of different roles. Typically, that just means its best to take a different character that specializes in a specific role and actually does the job really well instead of 2 jobs poorly.


Except... The Druid isn't "near last" in a bunch of different roles. It is second (or third) in a bunch of different roles.

It doesn't do 2 jobs poorly. It does several jobs at marginally less than the best possible. And most of those in 1st place roles don't easily have something to fall back on.

For example, in rooms where spell damage is nerfed, the Wizards don't have much to fall back on, whereas the Druids can usually keep dealing significant damage via melee/polymorph. When physical combat gets nerfed in a room, Druids blast away while a Monk/Ranger may be dealing less damage. I'm not sure the straight damage comparison takes this into consideration.


Just to be clear, is it your position that the Druid is the "most powerful" of all the classes? If not, where would you rank the Druid?

I'm not trying to single you out, I'm curious how everyone who is arguing how powerful the Druid is would answer the question.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 2 days ago #29

@MikeSteele - this is off-topic, so I’ll be brief

Monks and Rangers are the top melee, hands down. But, they are zeroes at Spell damage and healing.

Druid is THE best healer, if the Cleric can be cajoled into using Restore Spell on them, and they can’t use it on themselves so why not?
Third best spell damage after both wizards.
They’re better at melee than Fighters, what with all melee bonuses PLUS focus and Keen Polymorph bonuses.
With a Bowl, they replace Rogue in one room.
Considering how they’re in the top three in the three most important categories, that’s why I say they’re overpowered, and probably the most powerful class overall.

But sure, other than that they’re totally balanced.

You don’t have to agree, but you asked why me and others keep saying it.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 2 days ago #30

Brad Mortensen wrote: @MikeSteele - this is off-topic, so I’ll be brief

Monks and Rangers are the top melee, hands down. But, they are zeroes at Spell damage and healing.

Druid is THE best healer, if the Cleric can be cajoled into using Restore Spell on them, and they can’t use it on themselves so why not?
Third best spell damage after both wizards.
They’re better at melee than Fighters, what with all melee bonuses PLUS focus and Keen Polymorph bonuses.
With a Bowl, they replace Rogue in one room.
Considering how they’re in the top three in the three most important categories, that’s why I say they’re overpowered, and probably the most powerful class overall.

But sure, other than that they’re totally balanced.

You don’t have to agree, but you asked why me and others keep saying it.


So, to rephrase, Druid is last place in spell damage, last place in healing, and middle of the pack melee at best, but is overpowered.

Druid is last (3rd place) for spell damage behind both wizards, as no one is actually counting Cleric or Bard as spell damage dealers. Wizards don't have their legendary yet, so expect this gap to increase.

The Druid is the last place healer, unless you're counting the Bard, (given the effectiveness of Soothe wounds, I'm not certain the Druid exceeds the Bard). Cleric is a better healer, but IF you already have a Cleric and the Cleric isn't enough healing for the group, and you don't use restore spell on Soothe wounds, you can boost the Druid to be better than the Cleric..,.. which you probably don't need because you already have a Cleric. The Cleric does not have it's legendary yet, so expect this gap to increase.

The Druid is the 7th place melee fighter with an optimized poly build (which reduced effectiveness of spells as this thread points out since the +3 and +5 rings of focus don't affect poly). While I won't claim to have the most optimized builds ever in my phone, I have the Poly melee Druid behind Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, 2H Fighters, and 2H Paladin. If the monster needs to be hit by ranged and spells, the GotFF Monk is still hands down better than the poly druid (can the air elemental fly?) and Thor's means most of those classes are actually pretty good at ranged damage. The Fighters don't have their Legendary yet, so expect the melee gap to increase.

So, in summary, you can choose to take a Druid for the worst spell damage caster, worst healer, and at best a middle of the pack melee damage dealer. The benefit is you can switch from worst spell damage dealer to worst healer mid dungeon if needed, or you can leave the Cleric behind if you can get by with a Poly druid that spell swaps all of its damage spells for heals.

As I look at this more, it seems like all of the Focus items could add Poly damage to them and it wouldn't even push the Poly druid to top 3 melee damage, but it would reinforce the backup spell / healer role which wouldn't be all bad.

*Edit*
Note, I've never really seen a Druid in action doing all the things either, so maybe I just haven't seen it in use. In almost all of my runs, the Druid has been one of the classes not selected, along with one of the wizards.

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 1 day ago #31

Brad Mortensen wrote: @MikeSteele - this is off-topic, so I’ll be brief

Monks and Rangers are the top melee, hands down. But, they are zeroes at Spell damage and healing.

Druid is THE best healer, if the Cleric can be cajoled into using Restore Spell on them, and they can’t use it on themselves so why not?
Third best spell damage after both wizards.
They’re better at melee than Fighters, what with all melee bonuses PLUS focus and Keen Polymorph bonuses.
With a Bowl, they replace Rogue in one room.
Considering how they’re in the top three in the three most important categories, that’s why I say they’re overpowered, and probably the most powerful class overall.

But sure, other than that they’re totally balanced.

You don’t have to agree, but you asked why me and others keep saying it.


How are Druids top 3 in the three most important categories when they're #7 in the most important category, which is amount of damage they can deal, even when including polymorph bonuses?

I'll have to agree to disagree on much of the rest of it. I think healing ability is vastly overrated, how often are all the parties healing spells and abilities even used? To me, amount of damage dealt vastly outweighs everything else, because killing the monster is the end goal of every combat room, and the Druid is only middle of the pack.

I've never seen restore spell used on a healing spell personally, it's always been on a damage spell. It's also worth pointing out that the Druid can't both be close to the best healer and close to the best at damage spells at the same time, as the Druid would be maxing out Charm of Spell Swapping one way or another.

I have a hard time agreeing with anyone saying the Druid is more powerful than the Monk (for example), who has the top melee and ranged damage, top savings throw bonuses, and bonus abilities like stunning and Evasion.

So, agree to disagree. Which isn't surprising, because "best" and "most powerful" are pretty subjective, since different people will put more weight on different factors.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 1 day ago #32

Can I suppose something else to everyone? What does it matter if the Druid is or is not overpowered? This isn't a competition. If the druid does or doesn't do more damage than another class it they don't get anything special for it. The party gets damage on the monster. That party doesn't get anything over another party. Anyone has the opportunity to play the Druid (though your opportunity may be less if you are not at least 3rd level but that is a different thread).

Sure you can argue during token design that some character shouldn't get access to a token for power reasons. But if Jeff does want to make the Druid the most powerful or the least, why argue with each other about its power level? This happens again and again but it does achieve anything arguing with each other if it is or isn't overpowered.

Sorry maybe I am just grumble and will not read this topic for awhile. Someone let me know if any changes to focus are made because that is what I care about.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 1 day ago #33

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @MikeSteele - this is off-topic, so I’ll be brief

Monks and Rangers are the top melee, hands down. But, they are zeroes at Spell damage and healing.

Druid is THE best healer, if the Cleric can be cajoled into using Restore Spell on them, and they can’t use it on themselves so why not?
Third best spell damage after both wizards.
They’re better at melee than Fighters, what with all melee bonuses PLUS focus and Keen Polymorph bonuses.
With a Bowl, they replace Rogue in one room.
Considering how they’re in the top three in the three most important categories, that’s why I say they’re overpowered, and probably the most powerful class overall.

But sure, other than that they’re totally balanced.

You don’t have to agree, but you asked why me and others keep saying it.


So, to rephrase, Druid is last place in spell damage, last place in healing, and middle of the pack melee at best, but is overpowered.

Druid is last (3rd place) for spell damage behind both wizards, as no one is actually counting Cleric or Bard as spell damage dealers. Wizards don't have their legendary yet, so expect this gap to increase.

The Druid is the last place healer, unless you're counting the Bard, (given the effectiveness of Soothe wounds, I'm not certain the Druid exceeds the Bard). Cleric is a better healer, but IF you already have a Cleric and the Cleric isn't enough healing for the group, and you don't use restore spell on Soothe wounds, you can boost the Druid to be better than the Cleric..,.. which you probably don't need because you already have a Cleric. The Cleric does not have it's legendary yet, so expect this gap to increase.

The Druid is the 7th place melee fighter with an optimized poly build (which reduced effectiveness of spells as this thread points out since the +3 and +5 rings of focus don't affect poly). While I won't claim to have the most optimized builds ever in my phone, I have the Poly melee Druid behind Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, 2H Fighters, and 2H Paladin. If the monster needs to be hit by ranged and spells, the GotFF Monk is still hands down better than the poly druid (can the air elemental fly?) and Thor's means most of those classes are actually pretty good at ranged damage. The Fighters don't have their Legendary yet, so expect the melee gap to increase.

So, in summary, you can choose to take a Druid for the worst spell damage caster, worst healer, and at best a middle of the pack melee damage dealer. The benefit is you can switch from worst spell damage dealer to worst healer mid dungeon if needed, or you can leave the Cleric behind if you can get by with a Poly druid that spell swaps all of its damage spells for heals.

As I look at this more, it seems like all of the Focus items could add Poly damage to them and it wouldn't even push the Poly druid to top 3 melee damage, but it would reinforce the backup spell / healer role which wouldn't be all bad.

*Edit*
Note, I've never really seen a Druid in action doing all the things either, so maybe I just haven't seen it in use. In almost all of my runs, the Druid has been one of the classes not selected, along with one of the wizards.


Agree completely, with the clarification I think the Druid comes in #7 in overall damage, maybe not strictly melee damage.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 1 day ago #34

The only way to say Druid is in last place is to not count characters that are worse.

Druids can be #1 in healing. If Clerics refuse to cooperate, they’re #2. Two other classes do some healing, and eight classes so none. Those eight are the worst. Druid isn’t close.

Seven classes have no spell damage. Those seven are tied for last. Again, Druid isn’t even close to last place.
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"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 1 day ago #35

Endgame wrote: So, to rephrase, Druid is last place in spell damage, last place in healing, and middle of the pack melee at best, but is overpowered.


Your insistence that the Druid is in last place in a variety of categories where it is clearly not substantially undercuts both your argument, and my desire to attempt productive dialog on this topic with you.

You might have a point here, but "druids are last at X" is hyperbolic and does not advance your position.

Druid is last (3rd place) for spell damage behind both wizards, as no one is actually counting Cleric or Bard as spell damage dealers. Wizards don't have their legendary yet, so expect this gap to increase.


There are 5 damage dealing classes. Druid is 3rd of five. Last place would be 5th of five.

By your logic, Elf Wizard is "2nd to last" in spell damage dealing. If I predicated an argument around Elf Wizard being "2nd to last" in spell damage dealing would you find this a credible or helpful way to make a point?

Mere pole position placement does not tell the whole story.

BiS Druids deal 95% of the spell damage as Wizards while also maintaining an awesome repertoire of spell healing, massive melee damage bonuses and an expanded crit range due to polymorph, and many other benefits.

The Druid is the last place healer, unless you're counting the Bard, (given the effectiveness of Soothe wounds, I'm not certain the Druid exceeds the Bard). Cleric is a better healer, but IF you already have a Cleric and the Cleric isn't enough healing for the group, and you don't use restore spell on Soothe wounds, you can boost the Druid to be better than the Cleric..,.. which you probably don't need because you already have a Cleric. The Cleric does not have it's legendary yet, so expect this gap to increase.


There are 3 healing spell healing classes (I'm not counting 5th level Ranger), you claim Druid is 2nd of three. Last place would be 3rd of three.

With Charm of Spell Swapping 5th level Clerics and Druids get, in terms of max healing:

Cleric: 6 cure minor, 5 cure light, 3 cure moderate, 1 cure serious.
Druids: 7 cure minor, 5 cure light, 4 cure moderate, one of which is doubled.

It is not clear that Druids are not the #1 healer at UR+ gearing levels.

The Druid is the 7th place melee fighter with an optimized poly build (which reduced effectiveness of spells as this thread points out since the +3 and +5 rings of focus don't affect poly). While I won't claim to have the most optimized builds ever in my phone, I have the Poly melee Druid behind Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, 2H Fighters, and 2H Paladin. If the monster needs to be hit by ranged and spells, the GotFF Monk is still hands down better than the poly druid (can the air elemental fly?) and Thor's means most of those classes are actually pretty good at ranged damage. The Fighters don't have their Legendary yet, so expect the melee gap to increase.


You should maybe post some builds.

5th level Druid gets +5 damage and a crit range of 19-20 just for being polymorphed.

Let's compare with Barbarian with +5 Deathcleaver vs. Polymorphed Druid with +5 Drue's Baton.

0. I'm ignoring all a slots where both can equip the same stuff.
1. Barbarian has 6 more strength, so +3/+3.
2. Barbarian gets +4 damage on 2 handers.
3. Barbarian uses Shirt of Blessed Strength for +1/+1, Druid uses Shirt of Focus for +0/+2 (and +2 spell damage and +2 healing)
4. Barbarian uses Gauntlets of Linked Fury for +0/+5, Druid uses Gloves of the Brute for +2.5/+2.5.
5. Druid gets +0/+5 from Drue's
6. Druid gets +0/+2 from Gregors Tome (and +2 spell damage and +2 healing)
7. Barbarian wears Ring of the Eel and Ring of Brilliance for +0/+6, Druid wears Ring of the Eel and Ring of Frost for +0/+5.
8. Druid gets Orb of Might in the melee offhand for +1/+1 (or the can choose +2/+0 or +0/+2 instead).
9. Barbarian gets Redoubt Set for +1/+1.
10. Druid gets Crown of Might for +1/+1.


Netting it all out:

Barbarian is at [tokens both classes can use] and then adds: +5/+20
Druid is at [tokens both classes can use] and then adds: +4.5/+23.5 and a crit range of 19-20

I'm not sure how you're coming up with 7th best melee class, but it's pretty clear to me that if a Druid goes all out on melee they come in 3rd or 4th behind Monk, Ranger, and maybe Barbarian.

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Consistency of Focus Items 1 month 1 day ago #36

Brad Mortensen wrote: The only way to say Druid is in last place is to not count characters that are worse.

Druids can be #1 in healing. If Clerics refuse to cooperate, they’re #2. Two other classes do some healing, and eight classes so none. Those eight are the worst. Druid isn’t close.

Seven classes have no spell damage. Those seven are tied for last. Again, Druid isn’t even close to last place.


It doesn't make sense to include classes that aren't primarily spellcasters in the list of spellcaster rankings. Doing so just seems like it's artificially boosting Druids higher than they are.

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