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TOPIC: Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there)

Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 4 days ago #1

Occasionally people discuss creating a limit to the number of slotless tokens that can be brought on an adventure.

I want to put forward an argument here that: such a limit is not necessary, because slotless items are limited by other factors, including:

a. The number of combat rounds in a dungeon.
b. Your mental capacity.
c. Physics.

Of course the conclusions below depend on the effects granted by slotless tokens, so I'll make some recommendations below on that.

First: Slotless tokens are effectively limited by the number of combat rounds in a dungeon.

A large number of slotless tokens only work during combat (Horn of the Valkyrie, Druegar's Death Die), or have effects that are only beneficial during combat (Pouch of Tuz).

You get 3-4 rounds per combat tops, and 3-4 combats per dungeon*. This means you'll get 9 to 16 standard actions, and 9 to 16 free actions. Once you have 16 or so slotless items that only do something interesting in combat, and require some kind of action, you're effectively limited - you can't use them all.

Second: Slotless tokens are limited by a player's mental capacity.

There is a lot going on in the dungeon, without trying to remember 20 conditional, optional effects. Large numbers of slotless tokens reward skilled play, and players who prepare or are quick on their feet.

If you simply hand a bag of 20 slotless tokens to a new player they will get very little use out of them.

Allowing for large numbers of slotless tokens this adds a skill element to TD.

It's hard to keep track of 10 slotless effects. No one can keep track of 100 unless they are all very similar (e.g. -1 to fire, -2 to fire, -3 to fire, -1 to cold, ...).

Third: Slotless tokens are limited by physics.


Tokens are relatively large, heavy and difficult to manipulate in a dark, crowded dungeon. It would be very difficult to physically manage and have on hand to show a DM more than 30 or so tokens - even that I believe is pushing it.

Design Conclusions to Support Unlimited Slotless items


To avoid a scenario where slotless items create power creep that is difficult to balance, around, we can follow these principles:

1. Slotless items that effect the party card should be exceedingly rare, and probably up for reprint every few years.

2. Slotless items that don't require any kind of an action in combat to use should be considered carefully, and probably be rare.

3. Slotless items that require an action in combat to be used are not problematic, their "slot" is effectively a "combat action slot" of which a player gets at most 16.


* Per non-grind dungeon. We shouldn't be balancing tokens or making main dungeon equipping rules to support Grind - Grind is free to make any changes as it sees fit.

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Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 4 days ago #2

Economic point: slotless tokens are good sellers. People with optimum builds already have little incentive to buy as many new tokens unless they are better, or they’re slotless. Either way, power creep.

Putting a throttle on slotless tokens will likely decrease the demand for PYPs. Whether that’s a problem or not is a question for TPTB.

The 2020 Key was a perfect example. Everyone wanted multiples when it was slotless. Now, most people said there’s no room for them in their builds. I’m sure that one decision cost Jeff five figures.

But, if it results in lower quality sets or higher ticket prices, that’s a question for the players.

Taking the power-up approach to maintain sales will flush a lot of older URs into the market as people replace them, but that path has other complications. Newbies might buy the cheaper hand-me-downs vs their own PYPs, calls for trade-ins, etc.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 4 days ago #3

Brad Mortensen wrote: Economic point: slotless tokens are good sellers. People with optimum builds already have little incentive to buy as many new tokens unless they are better, or they’re slotless. Either way, power creep.

Putting a throttle on slotless tokens will likely decrease the demand for PYPs. Whether that’s a problem or not is a question for TPTB.

The 2020 Key was a perfect example. Everyone wanted multiples when it was slotless. Now, most people said there’s no room for them in their builds. I’m sure that one decision cost Jeff five figures.

But, if it results in lower quality sets or higher ticket prices, that’s a question for the players.

Taking the power-up approach to maintain sales will flush a lot of older URs into the market as people replace them, but that path has other complications. Newbies might buy the cheaper hand-me-downs vs their own PYPs, calls for trade-ins, etc.


What do you think would have been the result if the key ended up at: slotless, +3 to heals received DURING COMBAT? Would that have been a winner or a dud?

I feel like Druegar's Death Die, Pouch of Tulz, etc. are plenty in demand - I think there's tons of design space for 'requires an action during combat' high desirability slotless tokens - so I'm not too much worried about watering them down - and I don' think these really create that much power creep.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 4 days ago #4

I don't think there should be a limit on slotless. If you purposely collect them, and carry them into the dungeon with you, and can remember you have it, you should get to use it. It should be an advantage for you if you did do those things.

People who are complaining about them requiring an ever-increasing amount of space in their binder... you're free to impose a slotless limit on yourself. I already don't carry around most of the conditional effect removal consumables, or gear tokens, etc. But you know what, some people do, and if they do, they should get the benefit of using them.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I feel like Druegar's Death Die, Pouch of Tulz, etc. are plenty in demand - I think there's tons of design space for 'requires an action during combat' high desirability slotless tokens - so I'm not too much worried about watering them down - and I don' think these really create that much power creep.


Horn of the Valkyrie is an example of good design in this area. It's slotless, so you have no disadvantage from carrying it, might as well. But it's only worth using in a very specific case. It has to be a combat room, it's standard action, so you have to get a pre-combat round, or a situation where you can't or don't want to attack that round for whatever reason.
Classes Played: Barbarian (21 times), Monk (11), Cleric (9), Fighter (9), Rogue (9), Dwarf Fighter (7), Ranger (6), Paladin (5), Druid (5), Elf Wizard (2), Wizard (2).

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Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 4 days ago #5

Matthew Hayward wrote: To avoid a scenario where slotless items create power creep that is difficult to balance, around, we can follow these principles:

1. Slotless items that effect the party card should be exceedingly rare, and probably up for reprint every few years.

2. Slotless items that don't require any kind of an action in combat to use should be considered carefully, and probably be rare.

3. Slotless items that require an action in combat to be used are not problematic, their "slot" is effectively a "combat action slot" of which a player gets at most 16.


100% agree with all of this.

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Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 4 days ago #6

Matthew Hayward wrote: What do you think would have been the result if the key ended up at: slotless, +3 to heals received DURING COMBAT? Would that have been a winner or a dud?


It depends on the party. I can’t remember the last time I healed in combat, which would render this version pointless. Hard to say, but my guess is it would have been much more in demand than the final version, simply because slotless.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 2 days ago #7

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: What do you think would have been the result if the key ended up at: slotless, +3 to heals received DURING COMBAT? Would that have been a winner or a dud?


It depends on the party. I can’t remember the last time I healed in combat, which would render this version pointless. Hard to say, but my guess is it would have been much more in demand than the final version, simply because slotless.


There was a big nerf to LoDS this year because of its power level. Then Tome was printed (slotless for now) had the Key been printed as original there would have been effectively been +5 healing at slotless not counting Eldritch bonus for rod of seven parts and Teeth transmute coming up. That’s a lot of power at slotless. So I think the Key being changed to charm made since, even though it went from I’ll have 10 of those please, to sorry I think I’ll pass on that one thanks, for me.

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Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 2 days ago #8

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: What do you think would have been the result if the key ended up at: slotless, +3 to heals received DURING COMBAT? Would that have been a winner or a dud?


It depends on the party. I can’t remember the last time I healed in combat, which would render this version pointless. Hard to say, but my guess is it would have been much more in demand than the final version, simply because slotless.


There was a big nerf to LoDS this year because of its power level. Then Tome was printed (slotless for now) had the Key been printed as original there would have been effectively been +5 healing at slotless not counting Eldritch bonus for rod of seven parts and Teeth transmute coming up. That’s a lot of power at slotless. So I think the Key being changed to charm made since, even though it went from I’ll have 10 of those please, to sorry I think I’ll pass on that one thanks, for me.


Not saying it was the right or wrong decision, just that it will have a big financial impact on TDA that may or may not trickle down to affect us in metagame ways.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 2 days ago #9

With the number of charm and ioun stone expanders this and next year (Orion's belt plus next year's items) - quite a few newer players will have charm slots open. I doubt the drop-off in sales will be significant. I have builds for every class - the key will be in about a third of them.

More generally, I have gone out of my way to get every slotless item ever made. I am down to 2 left (horn of blasing and hourglass of imprisonment*). The mental bit is the hardest - remembering that I have a censer of sacrifice or one of the lamps or the effects of the innumerable number of horns is pretty hard. I miss it half the time easily.

I recommend slotless items remain as conditional items rather than flat power increasers (+2 damage, etc versus "can remove effects of stun or confusion when blown") they won't be a problem.

Fred

*I am looking to buy those two items if anyone has them :)

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Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 2 days ago #10

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I think the Key being changed to charm made since, even though it went from I’ll have 10 of those please, to sorry I think I’ll pass on that one thanks, for me.


I'm a little surprised that so many people went from ten all the way to zero. As a frequent Druid/Cleric, I plan on getting one for myself, so I can conveniently keep my own HP topped off just by siphoning one point from each LoDS spell I cast (something I can't do with a Linked Shirt). I'm pretty sure that's worth half an ear slot to me :)

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Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 2 days ago #11

Fred K wrote: With the number of charm and ioun stone expanders this and next year (Orion's belt plus next year's items) - quite a few newer players will have charm slots open. I doubt the drop-off in sales will be significant. I have builds for every class - the key will be in about a third of them.

More generally, I have gone out of my way to get every slotless item ever made. I am down to 2 left (horn of blasing and hourglass of imprisonment*). The mental bit is the hardest - remembering that I have a censer of sacrifice or one of the lamps or the effects of the innumerable number of horns is pretty hard. I miss it half the time easily.

I recommend slotless items remain as conditional items rather than flat power increasers (+2 damage, etc versus "can remove effects of stun or confusion when blown") they won't be a problem.

Fred

*I am looking to buy those two items if anyone has them :)


Isn't the Hourglass more of a consumable than slotless?

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Discuss: There is no need for a slotless limit (or is there) 2 weeks 1 day ago #12

Sort of - I think of it like some of the slotless than only have a finite number of uses. Technically, you are right, it is a consumable.

Fred

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