TOPIC: Power Creep Discussion

Endgame wrote:

Seth Murray wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Seth Murray wrote: Jeff makes sales to a person like me, who currently buys relics for $250 that someone spent $500 to craft and virtually never buys pouches due to the complexity of transmuting. The people who spend a lot still have the best gear and still buy a lot of stuff for their builds.

I see a lot of people mention relics are being sold at less than what it costs to make them. I think this isn't really an accurate assessment.

Based on previous super condensed auctions (especially pre order auctions that have extra stuff in them and a chance at a golden ticket), we can see that trade goods can have some pretty low costs. For example, we're looking at or under $1 for Silk / Plank / Stones, 25 or under for argonite, etc.

If you were to pre order a 8k set yourself, sell off everything else but the trade goods, I'm estimating relic costs under $225 not counting fleece, and desirable current relics, like the lute of free fury, selling at ~350.

What even the above doesn't reflect, however, is that people are generating trade goods from treasure pulls, so that is going to drop their actual cost of building the relics / legendaries even lower.

Long story short, it's not costing anyone $500 to build a relic...

Historically, it has cost that much to buy the raw materials. If we are talking about buying an 8k order, finding willing buyers for all the stuff I can't use, etc., we're now talking about hours and hours of work, which isn't free. The value of my time might be different than yours, but if we can say conservatively that the average person values their free time at $15 per hour and it takes about 10-15 hours (posting, haggling, shipping) of my time to sell off everything, there's a baked in time sink worth about $150-$225. I could drive an Uber for the same amount of time and buy the relic with my earnings. That's not even getting into the part where we are assuming that everyone who has $250 to spend on a token also has $8,000 that they can tie up for a month or two. If I had that kind of money sitting around I'd invest it conservatively for a few months and let the interest pay for part of the relic.

Long story short, it's not that simple.

You can, alternatively, just buy at auction prices. Not counting fleece, the Lute of Free Fury cost my group $263 funded entirely on auction prices. I have since learned that auction prices occasionally go above the prices seen on some of the token sites, so I could have saved a few bucks by being slightly more strategic. Of course, it did cost me the time to submit a bid, and I decided to spend extra transmuting via mail instead of at a convention. Still no where near $500.

Having one example from this year doesn't invalidate that when I did this math for the +3 deathcleaver I pieced together a couple years ago, it was far cheaper to buy the token than to buy the components, and that has been the case for years.

It also doesn't invalidate the point that if your budget is south of $1000 per year (mine is about $500), it's more efficient to spend your money on PYPs and relics. A healthy secondary market is good, but at some point I think TD is leaving money on the table, and if I had to replace my gear every two years, I'd be buying from TD, not Trent or Kurt or Ed or eBay, etc.

And this is all off topic of power creep anyways. Final thought, reel in the power variance by limiting what can be used in the dungeon, and reward players with loot for doing so, but allow epic difficulty for those that want to use all of their old gear.

Endgame wrote:

Seth Murray wrote: Jeff makes sales to a person like me, who currently buys relics for $250 that someone spent $500 to craft and virtually never buys pouches due to the complexity of transmuting. The people who spend a lot still have the best gear and still buy a lot of stuff for their builds.

I see a lot of people mention relics are being sold at less than what it costs to make them. I think this isn't really an accurate assessment.

Based on previous super condensed auctions (especially pre order auctions that have extra stuff in them and a chance at a golden ticket), we can see that trade goods can have some pretty low costs. For example, we're looking at or under $1 for Silk / Plank / Stones, 25 or under for argonite, etc.

If you were to pre order a 8k set yourself, sell off everything else but the trade goods, I'm estimating relic costs under $225 not counting fleece, and desirable current relics, like the lute of free fury, selling at ~350.

What even the above doesn't reflect, however, is that people are generating trade goods from treasure pulls, so that is going to drop their actual cost of building the relics / legendaries even lower.

Long story short, it's not costing anyone $500 to build a relic...

Treasure from the Treasure box is not free. You paid $80 (at GenCon) to draw as many as 21. Deduct the $8 pack you get and maybe $4 for the completion tokens. So around $3.50 per draw. Not free.

There is a glut of silk, stones and planks at the moment. These things go in waves.

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Seth Murray wrote: Jeff makes sales to a person like me, who currently buys relics for $250 that someone spent $500 to craft and virtually never buys pouches due to the complexity of transmuting. The people who spend a lot still have the best gear and still buy a lot of stuff for their builds.

I see a lot of people mention relics are being sold at less than what it costs to make them. I think this isn't really an accurate assessment.

Based on previous super condensed auctions (especially pre order auctions that have extra stuff in them and a chance at a golden ticket), we can see that trade goods can have some pretty low costs. For example, we're looking at or under $1 for Silk / Plank / Stones, 25 or under for argonite, etc.

If you were to pre order a 8k set yourself, sell off everything else but the trade goods, I'm estimating relic costs under $225 not counting fleece, and desirable current relics, like the lute of free fury, selling at ~350.

What even the above doesn't reflect, however, is that people are generating trade goods from treasure pulls, so that is going to drop their actual cost of building the relics / legendaries even lower.

Long story short, it's not costing anyone $500 to build a relic...

Treasure from the Treasure box is not free. You paid $80 (at GenCon) to draw as many as 21. Deduct the $8 pack you get and maybe $4 for the completion tokens. So around $3.50 per draw. Not free.

There is a glut of silk, stones and planks at the moment. These things go in waves.

Well, I'm playing for the experience, which I would pay regardless of the amount of treasure I draw.

Michelle wrote: Yes, exactly. Those things would be great but they are too hard for my party to make. I address the whetstone and belt below. As for the Charm of Treasure Boosting, two of us (including me) have more than one treasure enhancing token, so we couldn't use it. If I did some trading to get a few Charm of the Faithful, I could make three for my party (I've only got three Philosopher's Stone).

You say you are Rare level players and have more than 1 treasure enhancing token? I am going to guess you are saying you already have 1 Rare treasure enhancer (4 treasure draws instead of 3) so you can't use the Charm of Treasure Boosting. If that is you case you actually can use the Charm of Treasure Boosting. It is specifically designed to stack with an existing Rare treasure enhancer but not more than 1. So you would be able to get 5 draws at the end instead of 3 - this token was designed for new players that hadn't reached the UR level yet.

Ed

MasterED wrote: You say you are Rare level players and have more than 1 treasure enhancing token? I am going to guess you are saying you already have 1 Rare treasure enhancer (4 treasure draws instead of 3) so you can't use the Charm of Treasure Boosting. If that is you case you actually can use the Charm of Treasure Boosting. It is specifically designed to stack with an existing Rare treasure enhancer but not more than 1. So you would be able to get 5 draws at the end instead of 3 - this token was designed for new players that hadn't reached the UR level yet.

Ed

I've got the Amulet of Treasure Finding, Ioun Stone Silver Nugget, and now Ioun Stone Gold Nugget. We've been choosing treasure enhancers for our URs with token orders since I often play whatever class no one else wants to play. I've pulled a few other URs from treasure boxes and token orders. My party hold a total of 12 URs, 5 are treasure enhancers and the rest are things that can be used by any character like Shaed, Kvothe's Blodless, and Ring of Fateful Heroism. We also have two Ring of Heroism, so we've been playing with two 5th level characters. With the new rings, we will have five 5th level characters for this year. This is what I'm talking about, it sure seems like we should be able to play hardcore. We don't have rares in every slot but every character has rare armor and weapons and about 9-12 more rares with uncommons and transmutes filling out the rest.

Michelle wrote: I've got the Amulet of Treasure Finding, Ioun Stone Silver Nugget, and now Ioun Stone Gold Nugget. We've been choosing treasure enhancers for our URs with token orders since I often play whatever class no one else wants to play. I've pulled a few other URs from treasure boxes and token orders. My party hold a total of 12 URs, 5 are treasure enhancers and the rest are things that can be used by any character like Shaed, Kvothe's Blodless, and Ring of Fateful Heroism. We also have two Ring of Heroism, so we've been playing with two 5th level characters. With the new rings, we will have five 5th level characters for this year. This is what I'm talking about, it sure seems like we should be able to play hardcore. We don't have rares in every slot but every character has rare armor and weapons and about 9-12 more rares with uncommons and transmutes filling out the rest.

Yes you should definitely be playing Hardcore. If the rest of your build is not up to good Rare's then I would highly suggest taking some new money and buy those Rares or trade one of your less desirable expensive tokens. One good UR can likely get 2 great Rare builds.

Ed

I think I spent about 200$ on different rares and completion tokens to get 7 builds are the “good” rare lvl. I didn’t think that was bad

Michelle, it would be great if you want to post your builds and get feedback about your readiness for HC. Could be some obvious cheap upgrades too. Might want to start a new thread for it though. Good luck!

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Seth Murray wrote: Jeff makes sales to a person like me, who currently buys relics for $250 that someone spent $500 to craft and virtually never buys pouches due to the complexity of transmuting. The people who spend a lot still have the best gear and still buy a lot of stuff for their builds.

I see a lot of people mention relics are being sold at less than what it costs to make them. I think this isn't really an accurate assessment.

Based on previous super condensed auctions (especially pre order auctions that have extra stuff in them and a chance at a golden ticket), we can see that trade goods can have some pretty low costs. For example, we're looking at or under $1 for Silk / Plank / Stones, 25 or under for argonite, etc.

If you were to pre order a 8k set yourself, sell off everything else but the trade goods, I'm estimating relic costs under $225 not counting fleece, and desirable current relics, like the lute of free fury, selling at ~350.

What even the above doesn't reflect, however, is that people are generating trade goods from treasure pulls, so that is going to drop their actual cost of building the relics / legendaries even lower.

Long story short, it's not costing anyone $500 to build a relic...

Treasure from the Treasure box is not free. You paid $80 (at GenCon) to draw as many as 21. Deduct the $8 pack you get and maybe $4 for the completion tokens. So around $3.50 per draw. Not free.

There is a glut of silk, stones and planks at the moment. These things go in waves.

Well, I'm playing for the experience, which I would pay regardless of the amount of treasure I draw.

Sure. And I buy tokens so I can experience Nightmare. Does that make the mats I get from my excess tokens free?

It all depends on perspective I suppose.

Braxton wrote: Michelle, it would be great if you want to post your builds and get feedback about your readiness for HC. Could be some obvious cheap upgrades too. Might want to start a new thread for it though. Good luck!

Thanks, I started a new post "Can we play Hardcore yet?" I've never done that so hopefully I did it right. Any advice would be much appreciated

ok, so to get back on original brainstorming track with some pre-newbie thoughts from a long-time gamer, first time TDer @ GenCon...

Nobody wants to be "that guy" to force a group of vets to play normal. On the other hand, running with an epic-level vet who's a 1-man dungeon wrecking crew doesn't sound fun either. Totally.

Couldn't some of this power differential be handled by ticketing? CCGs have different variants of their games running all the time, can't TD run a Nightmare+ set of runs and Normal+ set of runs? Ratio would be hard, but I presume Jeff and team have some insight - or hand Jedi some stats to crunch. Or a tournament - say 8 ticketed Nightmare runs with the team with highest/lowest <insert condition here> winning some limited-run bragging token at end of convention.

As to power creep tokens themselves, its going to happen. I think Jeff and team already blend the pool to counteract - I think of MTG's Moxes (no reprints) or Dual Lands (reprint with slight disadvantage e.g. RoFH) or White Knight (reprints with signifigant advantages e.g. Tyr's vs +1 BoD). And the no reprints are a bummer for newbies.

That's why as a newbie, I also really like Seth's comment about evergreen. Although unlike Seth, (and don't pitchfork me) I would argue it applies to TEs also. As a CCG vet, limited makes things fresh.

And... because I have the floor. Familiars seem cool, but only for W/EW/D/Rgr/P. Infinite slotless seem wack. Kitting newbies with Avarice is awesome (hint hint). A hard-reset seem like a lead balloon. Digitization would be awesome.

Back to lurking...

I had a thought this evening which I wanted to share in case it might help these discussions. It sounds like token development may happen in July moving forward so would it be worthwhile to arrange a live beta test of some of the more controversial tokens during Gen Con? Specifically I was wondering if it could be done during some True Grind runs. I have not done a grind before so I could completely off base, but I was thinking that doing so would have the following benefits:

* It is 100% combat focused so puzzle rooms would not distract from measuring results
* It sounds like spectators will be allowed this year which means more people could observe or take notes on effectiveness
* There would be fewer coaches/DMs to instruct how to conduct the beta test, though their feedback would indicate how well a token performs from a DM's perspective
* The barrier of entry could be low. Slips of paper could be used in place of actual tokens for tokens which are not slid. If you were testing a weapon you could simply cross out the damage values on a common token and replace them with the equivalent value for the test.
* I think you could find willing participants. Dozens of people have voiced opinions during the token development process so I'd imagine people would love the chance to give more direct feedback. You could even offer small rewards to thank participants such as giving everyone in the party during the beta test a treasure pull or two.

The primary goal of this would be to get a few live tests to make sure something several people have expressed concern about gets tested a bit before the tokens are sent to production. It could also be a test of relative power levels of different tokens by running different tests throughout the events. It certainly won't catch everything, but it might help find some things which had to be changed in recent memory (e.g. consumable wands).