TOPIC: Classification for Various non-slotted Tokens Discussion

Matthew Hayward wrote:

isauteikisa wrote: I'm going to ask a question, specifically about Lotus Blossom Bowls, but more generally about why these might not want // need a classification of "Equipped".

Say I am the owner of a Lotus Blossom Bowls and I have a Potion Condensed Healing. In room 1, two of my fellow party members each take 10pts of damage. The puzzle or combat has ended, to avoid any finicky rules regarding actions during combat.

1) Am I, under the current rules, able to give my Lotus Blossom Bowls (which has not been used at all this run) and the potion to my fellow party members to use?
2) If the answer to #1 is "yes", if Lotus Blossom Bowls had the classification "Equippable", would that change the above scenario?

Granted, I don't believe the above would generally apply to all items under discussion (primarily, those that reduce damage, prevent death, etc). But if #1 above is valid, but would become invalid under #2, then this is not just cleanup and warrants a closer look on an item-by-item basis.

So... I don't think so.

I don't think non-consumables should be handed around.

This becomes much more problematic if we look at something like Druegar's Death Die. If I could just hand it off to the first person who dies in combat it makes it much more powerful, and paradoxically much less desirable (no need for one for every player, just a few). Same goes for Ash's Death Pouch.

Or look at Greater Alchemist Pouch - if you could pass it around then having one would be the same as having 10.

I'd be receptive to a rules clarification that you can pass around these kinds of things, but I think you need to decide in the coaching room what stuff you are taking, and if it has an in game effect, and is not consumable, it's "equipped" to you (runestones are also "equipped" - the only consumable that is equipped I think).

Unless Korea then one person died and wanted to use the effect. That said I dont think these items are shareable in today's world, just because they are slotless doesnt mean they are not equipped. Not that its something we could practically enforce anyway.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I am proposing you only be able to bring one Instrument of a given name, I suppose, which could have Grind implications.

Common strategy is to bring two Widseth's Lutes to Grind for sure. But now theoretically you could have the UR, Relic, and Legendary versions even with this rule, so no big deal IMO.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I am proposing you only be able to bring one Instrument of a given name, I suppose, which could have Grind implications.

Common strategy is to bring two Widseth's Lutes to Grind for sure. But now theoretically you could have the UR, Relic, and Legendary versions even with this rule, so no big deal IMO.

I also guess Grind would be free to handle this however it likes.

Can you bring multiple "back up" weapons in Grind of the same name? I assume so. Then maybe instruments can be treated the same. Not sure we need a rule written down in the book for this corner case.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I am proposing you only be able to bring one Instrument of a given name, I suppose, which could have Grind implications.

Common strategy is to bring two Widseth's Lutes to Grind for sure. But now theoretically you could have the UR, Relic, and Legendary versions even with this rule, so no big deal IMO.

I also guess Grind would be free to handle this however it likes.

Can you bring multiple "back up" weapons in Grind of the same name? I assume so. Then maybe instruments can be treated the same. Not sure we need a rule written down in the book for this corner case.

In one Grind (as a Fighter) I used three different +3 Slayer Swords (annoying rust monster I think). In another (as a Bard) I used 2 Widseth's Lutes, 2 Briano's, and duplicates of several Rares (I took up several rounds of a monster's actions with Incognito just using Shatter over and over on me).

Matthew Hayward wrote: If you'd like to open a new discussion thread about pros and cons of shoehorning the following tokens into an existing classification, you're welcome to do so.

Why? I mean to what end? So they can be found easier on tokendb or some other reason. Just curious. Not judging, just attempt to understand.

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: If you'd like to open a new discussion thread about pros and cons of shoehorning the following tokens into an existing classification, you're welcome to do so.

Why? I mean to what end? So they can be found easier on tokendb or some other reason. Just curious. Not judging, just attempt to understand.

I was looking at tokens in TDb.

I noticed some tokens that seemed like they should be classified as Equippable didn't have that classification, like Shaman's Arcane Hat and +1 Blowgun Flute.

I also noticed some things I couldn't quite fit to a pattern: e.g. Horns, Lamps are not listed as equippable, but RoSP Segments are. A few of the Scroll Tubes aren't listed as equippable (including Sea Dragon which conveys a game effect while underwater) and others are.

My aim is to make TDb consistent and comprehensive with regard to Classification. Right now many of the things on the list above have no classification whatsoever.

Ultimately I often want to see the following lists:

1. All consumables with in game effects.

2. All non-consumables with in game effects (so, ignore "gear" - and the difference between "gear" and non-gear is something like: has game text that references rules or tokens).

If my proposal above goes through #2 will be the "equippable" items (or perhaps equippable + music instrument).

Maybe there should be two different categories. Look at "Classification" and "Equippable" as two different things. Classifying something is determining what something is versus wether or not you can "equip" it which could be a simple "yes" or "no". FWIW in the database I keep for my collection I believe I have the Tokens you listed classified as "Gear" but would have to check.

Rob F wrote: Maybe there should be two different categories. Look at "Classification" and "Equippable" as two different things. Classifying something is determining what something is versus wether or not you can "equip" it which could be a simple "yes" or "no". FWIW in the database I keep for my collection I believe I have the Tokens you listed classified as "Gear" but would have to check.

That would work too - however I think what is primarily at issue here is what does “equippable” mean.

Today it means:

Things that go in slots, but not consumable weapons or instruments or wands, but also RoSP items and cavadar teeth, and some scroll tubes, but not some other scroll tubes.

This could definition could use some clean up.

I would also be curious how to define “gear.” Non consumable, slotless, non-GP, non-monster bit, tokens? Are adventurers guild tokens gear?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument and should be classified with them. It’s Bard only and can’t be used at the same time as other instruments.

Ah - corralary to my stuff above - musical instruments should also be Equipped.

Point of clarification, are you suggesting a bard only bring one instrument into a dungeon like a cleric brings only one holy symbol?

No.

The Holy Symbol rule has nothing to do with whether they are equipped or not - it's just a rule: you can only bring one holy symbol into the dungeon.

I am proposing you only be able to bring one Instrument of a given name, I suppose, which could have Grind implications.

Matthew Hayward wrote: That would work too - however I think what is primarily at issue here is what does “equippable” mean.

Today it means:

Things that go in slots, but not consumable weapons or instruments or wands, but also RoSP items and cavadar teeth, and some scroll tubes, but not some other scroll tubes.

This could definition could use some clean up.

Page 10 and 11 of the Player's Handbook seems to explain this TD DB classification IMO: All worn items are "equipped" to a slot and thus both unique and non-swappable, while hand-held items are both not unique and swappable regardless of there being a slot or not. Instruments are hand-held and not slotted, and so aren't subject to being equippable. The Fae Blowgun is both an instrument and a weapon, and since a weapon takes up a slot, it is tagged equippable but since weapons aren't held to the non-swappable rule it becomes moot.

Legendary Widseth's may just be a mistake in the database since all the other legendaries have an equippable slot and it may have been a copypasta job for expediency.

It seems like some of the tokens you list are also "Limited Use: Max 1/Person", and classifying those further seems like splitting hairs to me.

I could see introducing a "Hand-Held" tag to help clarify what can be swapped and what can't in accordance with the PHB rules wording, but that seems like it would be a rather massive undertaking to implement across all those tokens for very little end result.

Some of the tokens listed may just be typos and simply need to be brought to the attention of TPTB for tagging.

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument and should be classified with them. It’s Bard only and can’t be used at the same time as other instruments.

Ah - corralary to my stuff above - musical instruments should also be Equipped.

Point of clarification, are you suggesting a bard only bring one instrument into a dungeon like a cleric brings only one holy symbol?

No.

The Holy Symbol rule has nothing to do with whether they are equipped or not - it's just a rule: you can only bring one holy symbol into the dungeon.

I am proposing you only be able to bring one Instrument of a given name, I suppose, which could have Grind implications.

Matthew Hayward wrote: That would work too - however I think what is primarily at issue here is what does “equippable” mean.

Today it means:

Things that go in slots, but not consumable weapons or instruments or wands, but also RoSP items and cavadar teeth, and some scroll tubes, but not some other scroll tubes.

This could definition could use some clean up.

Page 10 and 11 of the Player's Handbook seems to explain this TD DB classification IMO: All worn items are "equipped" to a slot and thus both unique and non-swappable, while hand-held items are both not unique and swappable regardless of there being a slot or not. Instruments are hand-held and not slotted, and so aren't subject to being equippable. The Fae Blowgun is both an instrument and a weapon, and since a weapon takes up a slot, it is tagged equippable but since weapons aren't held to the non-swappable rule it becomes moot.

Interesting! You seem to be inferring a category of handheld, non-slotted things, and placing instruments in that category?

My understanding is different - I think there are two slots: mainhand and offhand, and anything held in the hands is using one or both of those slots (including Wands, Instruments, potions while you're drinking them, etc). These slots are special in that they can be swapped out in the dungeon.


Do you have a sense of whether these TDb entries agree or disagree with your interpretation of PHB pg. 10/11 with regard to classified as equippable or not:

RoSP / RoSP segments (equippable in TDb)
Cavadar Teeth (PHB explicitly states they are equipped)
Non-Alchemical Weapons (not equippable in TDb)
Alchemicical Weapons (equippable in TDb)
50 GP Ebony, Arcane, Greater Arcane Scroll Tubes (equippable in TDb)
Bone Map Case, Bone, Sea Dragon Scroll Case (not equippable in TDb
Horns, Lamps, and a variety of slotless URs (not equippable in TDb)

Practically I think we would want slotless URs to be equipped - if not I don't see any rule that would prevent me just announcing my Druegar's Death Die was being used for any player in the party - if it's not equipped then how is it bound to my character?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument and should be classified with them. It’s Bard only and can’t be used at the same time as other instruments.

Ah - corralary to my stuff above - musical instruments should also be Equipped.

Point of clarification, are you suggesting a bard only bring one instrument into a dungeon like a cleric brings only one holy symbol?

No.

The Holy Symbol rule has nothing to do with whether they are equipped or not - it's just a rule: you can only bring one holy symbol into the dungeon.

I am proposing you only be able to bring one Instrument of a given name, I suppose, which could have Grind implications.

Matthew Hayward wrote: That would work too - however I think what is primarily at issue here is what does “equippable” mean.

Today it means:

Things that go in slots, but not consumable weapons or instruments or wands, but also RoSP items and cavadar teeth, and some scroll tubes, but not some other scroll tubes.

This could definition could use some clean up.

Page 10 and 11 of the Player's Handbook seems to explain this TD DB classification IMO: All worn items are "equipped" to a slot and thus both unique and non-swappable, while hand-held items are both not unique and swappable regardless of there being a slot or not. Instruments are hand-held and not slotted, and so aren't subject to being equippable. The Fae Blowgun is both an instrument and a weapon, and since a weapon takes up a slot, it is tagged equippable but since weapons aren't held to the non-swappable rule it becomes moot.

Interesting! You seem to be inferring a category of handheld, non-slotted things, and placing instruments in that category?

My understanding is different - I think there are two slots: mainhand and offhand, and anything held in the hands is using one or both of those slots (including Wands, Instruments, potions while you're drinking them, etc). These slots are special in that they can be swapped out in the dungeon.


Do you have a sense of whether these TDb entries agree or disagree with your interpretation of PHB pg. 10/11 with regard to classified as equippable or not:

RoSP / RoSP segments (equippable in TDb)
Cavadar Teeth (PHB explicitly states they are equipped)
Non-Alchemical Weapons (not equippable in TDb)
Alchemicical Weapons (equippable in TDb)
50 GP Ebony, Arcane, Greater Arcane Scroll Tubes (equippable in TDb)
Bone Map Case, Bone, Sea Dragon Scroll Case (not equippable in TDb
Horns, Lamps, and a variety of slotless URs (not equippable in TDb)

Practically I think we would want slotless URs to be equipped - if not I don't see any rule that would prevent me just announcing my Druegar's Death Die was being used for any player in the party - if it's not equipped then how is it bound to my character?

I'm more suggesting that the tag "Equippable" is strongly paired with tokens that take up a slot and would affect the party card stats in a permanent fashion. Instruments are hand-held but are not equipped as they do not have a permanent effect on a party card and can be swapped. The +1 Fae Blowgun is equipped as it affects To-Hit and Damage stats, but is swappable due to it being a hand-held item. A potion is not equipped as it is a temporary effect and a hand-held item. The RoSP affects party card stats for the run and thus must be equipped. Death Die is a temporary effect, not equipped but limited to only one copy and use per player.

I agree there are two slots for main and off hand, but those slots do not automatically impart an "Equippable" trait onto the tokens being used in those slots. The specifics of the token is what determines which slot it occupies and whether the effects affect the party card on a permanent or temporary basis.

The term "Equippable" in the database does not seem to be used in the same way as how you are using it, which to me seems to be applied to anything a character is carrying in the dungeon. In which case everything is Equippable and the tag is meaningless.

I highly suggest rereading page 11 of the PHB, as it goes over how duplicate versus 1/player tokens are handled. Among the tokens you list, there are some that are tagged "Max 1/Player", in the database, meaning you cannot have/use more than 1 of that token per player. In your Death Die example, you are allowed to use your Death Die one time for yourself per the "Max 1/Player" rule. Using it any other way would be cheating, but there are no Token Police monitoring your play. Players are on their honor to not give their Death Die to someone else to use. They are on their honor to track its use and not take advantage of the fact that the DM in one room doesn't know that they already used their Death Die in an earlier room, or have borrowed and used someone else's. Doing so is called cheating per the 1/player rule for that token. If you are only allowed to carry one for yourself and cannot use it for someone else, and it isn't tracked on the party card, then why should it require an "Equippable" tag?

The only thing preventing you from announcing you are using your one Death Die for the entire party is your own conscience and willingness to follow the token's rule of "Max 1/Player". If you are looking for more clarification on what exactly the tag "Equippable" as used in the database conveys for rules purposes, as well as reasons for why each specific token is or is not tagged as "Equippable", I would suggest PMing Druegar.

Perhaps adding a glossary of tags page to the database would help avoid misunderstanding as well as aid in ensuring tokens are tagged consistently in accordance with those definitions.

Druegar said : As a sorta-kinda-rule-but-don't-quote-me-on-this-because-it's-not-always-the-case, "Equipable" is something worn/placed in a recognized slot and/or recorded on the party card.