TOPIC: Classification for Various non-slotted Tokens Discussion

Vectored here from the Token Database 2.0 thread :


These are the current Classification values:

• Affects Class Talent
• Ammunition
• Dust
• Equippable
• Food
• Gear
• GP Value
• Holy Symbol
• Liquid
• Musical Instrument
• Rumor
• Scroll
• Shield
• Trade 1
• Trade 2
• Trade 3
• Trade 4
• Truecraft
• Wand
• Weapon

If you'd like to open a new discussion thread about pros and cons of shoehorning the following tokens into an existing classification, you're welcome to do so.
Ash’s Death Pouch
Censer of Sacrifice
Drinking Horn of Bliss
Druegar’s Death Die
Enchanter’s Whetstone
Flask of Sharing
Gem of Blinding
Gem of Healing
Gem of the Oasis
Goblet of Healing
Guild of Ale Drinkers
Horn of Blasting
Horn of Calling
Horn of Rally
Horn of the Blessed Ox
Horn of the Valkyrie
Hourglass of Answers
Hourglass of Imprisonment
Invitation to Celebration
Lamp of the Efreeti
Lamp of the Marid
Lotus Blossom Bowls
Minotaur Horn of Alert
Mithral Coin of Luck
Pouch of Tulz
Quiver of Anointment
Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing
Savior Stone
Scepter of the Dead
Smoke Bomb
Smokestick
Soul Coffer
Soul Jar
Special (C)
Special (R)
Special (UC)
Special (UR)
Tanglefoot Bag
Triton Horn

OK! Here we go!

First let's see how the PHB uses the term equip so that we don't cause confusion (not comprehensive):

Pg. 10 Equipment (tokens)
Coaches will work with players to equip characters, calculate the total bonus effects for your character, and then record those bonuses on the Party Card for easy reference by the DMs.
...
There are restrictions on the numbers of items that a character can "equip" (wear.) For the most part, all the tokens your character users will occupy a particular "slot" on the body.

Pg. 11:
Other than weapons, which have no uniqueness restriction, you may not equip more than one token with the same name.
...
Tokens that are not equipped aren't generally restricted in this way. You can carry and use multiple potions, scrolls, wands, and nearly all other consumable items.

There are some tokens which are not equipped per se, but are limited to one per person ( tokendb.com/limited-use/max-1person/ ). Many, but not all, of these can be used only once per adventure. E.g., ASH'S DEATH POUCH lets you escape death once per room.

Pg. 40:
...[token stat] prerequisites must be met by equipping permanent ITEMS, not via potions or other temporary buffs.

Pg. 46:
Each player will then add up the number of unique Teeth of Cavadar tokens they have equipped. ... Without any Teeth equipped, only cell repair may be used. ... Equipping more Cavadar Teeth does not grant you additional manifestations of powers... ... Like nearly all tokens, you may not equip more than one same-named token.

Pg. 72:
Equip: In general, an equipped item is one that your character is wearing and/or is in an assigned slot.

The salient bit of this for me is that for things that are "equipped"

1. You may have no more than one of the same name. (pg. 11)
2. Need not occupy a slot ("for the most part [equipped tokens are slotted]" pg. 10, "In general [equipped tokens are slotted] pg. 72).

A problem for me in this view is that Ash's Death Pouch is explicitly called out in the PHB as "not equipped per se."

On the flip side, RoSP, and its segments are listed as "Equippable" in TokenDB.

In this instance I think the TDb gets it right and the PHB gets it wrong. Consider, if RoSP isn't "equipped" then by the rules above it's stat bonuses can't be used to qualify for stat minimum tokens.

So...

Proposal:

1. Remove the stuff in the PHB that says Ash's death pouch isn't equipped.

2. Formalize the definition of equip to mean: "Equipped tokens are tokens that your character may only benefit from one of, with the exception of weapons which are equipped and your character may use any number of. Generally equipped tokens are worn by your character in an assigned slot - although some slotless tokens are also equipped."

3. Mark all these as "equippable":

Ash’s Death Pouch
Censer of Sacrifice
Drinking Horn of Bliss
Druegar’s Death Die
Enchanter’s Whetstone
Flask of Sharing
Goblet of Healing
Horn of Blasting
Horn of Calling
Horn of Rally
Horn of the Blessed Ox
Horn of the Valkyrie
Lamp of the Efreeti
Lamp of the Marid
Lotus Blossom Bowls
Minotaur Horn of Alert
Pouch of Tulz
Quiver of Anointment
Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing
Scepter of the Dead
Soul Coffer
Soul Jar
Tanglefoot Bag

3a. Probably mark all thrown one use weapons with a damage wheel like Alchemical weapons as equippable? (because they are weapons, and the definition means all weapons are equippable?)

3b. Probably mark all musical instruments as equippable?

3c. Mark the following gear as equippable (note - some gear is already equippable, like some of the scroll tubes):

Alchemist Pouch
Alchemist Purse
Bone Map Case
Bone Scroll Case
Canteen of Quaffing
Greater Alchemist Pouch
Sea Dragon Scroll Tube

4. Mark all future non-weapon tokens that a character can bring only one of for their character to use as equippable.

And... for extra credit:
5. Create a new classification called "Consumable".
6. Put all Wands, Scrolls, Food, Oils, Liquids, Ammo, etc., etc. into Consumable in addition to their current category.
7. Add the oddball consumables from note #1 (Gem's, Savior Stone, etc., etc.) to the Consumable classification.

I'm going to ask a question, specifically about Lotus Blossom Bowls, but more generally about why these might not want // need a classification of "Equipped".

Say I am the owner of a Lotus Blossom Bowls and I have a Potion Condensed Healing. In room 1, two of my fellow party members each take 10pts of damage. The puzzle or combat has ended, to avoid any finicky rules regarding actions during combat.

1) Am I, under the current rules, able to give my Lotus Blossom Bowls (which has not been used at all this run) and the potion to my fellow party members to use?
2) If the answer to #1 is "yes", if Lotus Blossom Bowls had the classification "Equippable", would that change the above scenario?

Granted, I don't believe the above would generally apply to all items under discussion (primarily, those that reduce damage, prevent death, etc). But if #1 above is valid, but would become invalid under #2, then this is not just cleanup and warrants a closer look on an item-by-item basis.

Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument and should be classified with them. It’s Bard only and can’t be used at the same time as other instruments.

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument and should be classified with them. It’s Bard only and can’t be used at the same time as other instruments.

Ah - corralary to my stuff above - musical instruments should also be Equipped.

A lot of it feels more like Gear than anything else really

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument and should be classified with them. It’s Bard only and can’t be used at the same time as other instruments.

Ah - corralary to my stuff above - musical instruments should also be Equipped.

Point of clarification, are you suggesting a bard only bring one instrument into a dungeon like a cleric brings only one holy symbol?

isauteikisa wrote: I'm going to ask a question, specifically about Lotus Blossom Bowls, but more generally about why these might not want // need a classification of "Equipped".

Say I am the owner of a Lotus Blossom Bowls and I have a Potion Condensed Healing. In room 1, two of my fellow party members each take 10pts of damage. The puzzle or combat has ended, to avoid any finicky rules regarding actions during combat.

1) Am I, under the current rules, able to give my Lotus Blossom Bowls (which has not been used at all this run) and the potion to my fellow party members to use?
2) If the answer to #1 is "yes", if Lotus Blossom Bowls had the classification "Equippable", would that change the above scenario?

Granted, I don't believe the above would generally apply to all items under discussion (primarily, those that reduce damage, prevent death, etc). But if #1 above is valid, but would become invalid under #2, then this is not just cleanup and warrants a closer look on an item-by-item basis.

So... I don't think so.

I don't think non-consumables should be handed around.

This becomes much more problematic if we look at something like Druegar's Death Die. If I could just hand it off to the first person who dies in combat it makes it much more powerful, and paradoxically much less desirable (no need for one for every player, just a few). Same goes for Ash's Death Pouch.

Or look at Greater Alchemist Pouch - if you could pass it around then having one would be the same as having 10.

I'd be receptive to a rules clarification that you can pass around these kinds of things, but I think you need to decide in the coaching room what stuff you are taking, and if it has an in game effect, and is not consumable, it's "equipped" to you (runestones are also "equipped" - the only consumable that is equipped I think).

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument

TD defines a musical instrument as something that can be used to perform bardsong. SPoD does not meet that requirement.

macXdmg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument and should be classified with them. It’s Bard only and can’t be used at the same time as other instruments.

Ah - corralary to my stuff above - musical instruments should also be Equipped.

Point of clarification, are you suggesting a bard only bring one instrument into a dungeon like a cleric brings only one holy symbol?

No.

The Holy Symbol rule has nothing to do with whether they are equipped or not - it's just a rule: you can only bring one holy symbol into the dungeon.

I am proposing you only be able to bring one Instrument of a given name, I suppose, which could have Grind implications.

Druegar wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument

TD defines a musical instrument as something that can be used to perform bardsong. SPoD does not meet that requirement.

In light of that I’ll say Gear

Matthew Hayward wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Satyr’s Pipes of Dancing Seems like a Musical Instrument and should be classified with them. It’s Bard only and can’t be used at the same time as other instruments.

Ah - corralary to my stuff above - musical instruments should also be Equipped.

Point of clarification, are you suggesting a bard only bring one instrument into a dungeon like a cleric brings only one holy symbol?

No.

The Holy Symbol rule has nothing to do with whether they are equipped or not - it's just a rule: you can only bring one holy symbol into the dungeon.

I am proposing you only be able to bring one Instrument of a given name, I suppose, which could have Grind implications.

Keep in mind that Grind often has special rules. Such as already tracking whether you've equipped some of the things on your list.

Overall, I agree with your proposal near the start of the thread.

One clarification though, Runestone Fitting Bases are an oddball equipped token that breaks many rules. So your wording may want to reflect that.