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TOPIC: All this discussion means we did it, right?

All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #1

Man the forums have been crazy the last week or so. WAY more than I remember last year. I might be wrong on this, but a *lot* of people seem extremely upset. Laz's post seems to confirm this.

Am I the only one that sees all of this as evidence of success?

I was under the impression that people wanted more design room for Jeff, and actual decisions in their builds.

What are the best pants now? I see some people might keep their UR pants and some will wear the eldritch kilt. I even saw someone arguing that they needed to keep their Viper set.

Are you going to keep your LoDS?

What is the best back slot item now? We have a 5 page thread discussing that.

How do you make your 6 charms work when you have to fill your neck slot with your legendary now?

Isn't that what everyone wanted? Decisions that weren't boring? Decisions with real trade-offs?


I'm not nearly as invested as many of the people here obviously, and I can barely bring myself to skim through the hundreds of responses I see. However, it appears to me that this year's changes to the tokens at least have accomplished (mostly) their goal of controlling power creep and creating real decisions among more hardcore players.


While I agree that it's unfortunate that a lot of people lost some of their favorite tokens, it really seems to me that Jeff has accomplished that goal for the most part.


Does anyone feel very differently? (and by that I mean that decisions have been created and power creep addressed in some way)

Jeff did it. Change my view?
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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #2

Many people wanted more diversity in builds and less power creep. Raven's thread title was the perfect response. "Give us choices. No, not like that." It was easy to say as a concept until the changes started coming. Overall, I think it improved the health of the game.

The bigger controversy, in my opinion was around the recipes. There is still lively discussion around that. And unlike the token design, still potentially time to change them.

Keeping LoDS for my Son's Druid build.

Back - Pharacus is best.. I would have replaced my 2nd back item (Dougals) with Cloak of Shadowskin had it stayed at +2 saves. But not at +1.


Pants. I'm making both Kilts that I can make.


6 Charms? I'm sticking with 5 using the Bracelets. My Son uses the Charm Necklace on his Druid, but the Legendary does not interest him as he all about maximizing spells.


The truly amazing thing is the way Jeff lets us play in his sandbox.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last edit: by Harlax.

All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #3

I'm still down on the decision to use the Neck slot for the Legendaries. I still feel like that slot is one of the few I actually see different on high-end builds, and I suspect the high-end builds will all start coalescing around the class-specific Legendaries. I'd rather have seen it go to a slot that had less differentiation currently (like main hand, especially since that is where the exceptions to the rule are going anyways).

Some power creep has been addressed, but only on healing and defense. Power grew yet again on the offense side of things, with the damage bonus to the Eldritch Set, and the UR damage boosters. Clerics are the ones most impacted by the nerfs, less so Druids and Bards. And at least the Druids and Bards got their class Legendaries this year which helps offset the sting I expect. I'm only realizing this now (and realize it is way too late in the game), but it would have been nice to offset the Cleric nerfs by giving them their Legendary this year (no offense to Rogues, they also need some love).

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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #4

I was thinking the exact same thing Fiddy was - Power Creep was addressed on the defensive / healing side, but not on the offensive side. There was a lot of new power creep on the offensive side this year (bonus damage for Eldritch Set, Charm of Quick Strike, Gregor's Tome, Ice Shard, all three Relic/Legendary class specific tokens, etc).

Even the healing power reduction was a lot more on the non-BIS group than the BIS slot. While the LoDS hit all the power levels, the Eldritch healing bonus will be unchanged for those with 5 Eldritch Tokens while a 60% reduction for those with two.

Taking into account Gregor's Tome and the +2 healing on LoDS, the BIS group actually gained four points of healing this year, and those with 2 Eldritch Items only lost a couple of points, although it can't be doubled onto a second target anymore.

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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #5

Hopefully the Golden Fleece will be removed from the Kilt as the kilt does follow a different trend of transmuting. If there was more of a heads up in the past, and the discussion of Golden Fleece probably added, many may have chosen different things to focus on.

I am hoping that Jeff removes the fleece from the Kilts and then has a discussion about Eldritch items before the next cycle is released.

Cavadar's Necklace of Teeth, will there be Fleece in it?

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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #6

Mike Steele wrote: I was thinking the exact same thing Fiddy was - Power Creep was addressed on the defensive / healing side, but not on the offensive side. There was a lot of new power creep on the offensive side this year (bonus damage for Eldritch Set, Charm of Quick Strike, Gregor's Tome, Ice Shard, all three Relic/Legendary class specific tokens, etc).

Even the healing power reduction was a lot more on the non-BIS group than the BIS slot. While the LoDS hit all the power levels, the Eldritch healing bonus will be unchanged for those with 5 Eldritch Tokens while a 60% reduction for those with two.

Taking into account Gregor's Tome and the +2 healing on LoDS, the BIS group actually gained four points of healing this year, and those with 2 Eldritch Items only lost a couple of points, although it can't be doubled onto a second target anymore.


With the 3 pices set bonus at 6, its a wash. If you are 4 piece you are plus 2. The gain of 4 is still a few years away. In any case much more was lost with the change from duplication to pool.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #7

For a choice to be a choice, you have to have a choice.

You know that movie “127 Hours,” where James Franco had to choose between sawing off his arm with a pocketknife or dying?

A bit melodramatic, but that’s what the Eldritch Kilt felt like to me. There isn’t a real choice whether to use it or not over Fatherbane, unless you’ll never go for the Eldritch set, my tantrum aside, but it was a painful one anyway.

And every future Eldritch piece will be a non-choice, too, unless the set bonus caps at five.

Same thing for the class legendaries. All of them will lock up a slot, and that’s the opposite of choice.

It’s going to be a very difficult needle to thread, and I don’t have an answer.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #8

Brad Mortensen wrote: For a choice to be a choice, you have to have a choice.

You know that movie “127 Hours,” where James Franco had to choose between sawing off his arm with a pocketknife or dying?

A bit melodramatic, but that’s what the Eldritch Kilt felt like to me. There isn’t a real choice whether to use it or not over Fatherbane, unless you’ll never go for the Eldritch set, my tantrum aside, but it was a painful one anyway.

And every future Eldritch piece will be a non-choice, too, unless the set bonus caps at five.

Same thing for the class legendaries. All of them will lock up a slot, and that’s the opposite of choice.

It’s going to be a very difficult needle to thread, and I don’t have an answer.


I think there is a bit of a choice with some. The kilt, obviously, and I would argue the SRoEC isn't necessarily a given.

The slotless ones are a definite, of course.
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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #9

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I was thinking the exact same thing Fiddy was - Power Creep was addressed on the defensive / healing side, but not on the offensive side. There was a lot of new power creep on the offensive side this year (bonus damage for Eldritch Set, Charm of Quick Strike, Gregor's Tome, Ice Shard, all three Relic/Legendary class specific tokens, etc).

Even the healing power reduction was a lot more on the non-BIS group than the BIS slot. While the LoDS hit all the power levels, the Eldritch healing bonus will be unchanged for those with 5 Eldritch Tokens while a 60% reduction for those with two.

Taking into account Gregor's Tome and the +2 healing on LoDS, the BIS group actually gained four points of healing this year, and those with 2 Eldritch Items only lost a couple of points, although it can't be doubled onto a second target anymore.


With the 3 pices set bonus at 6, its a wash. If you are 4 piece you are plus 2. The gain of 4 is still a few years away. In any case much more was lost with the change from duplication to pool.


I totally agree, it was a net big loss for healing. And a pretty big overall increase in damage dealing.

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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #10

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I was thinking the exact same thing Fiddy was - Power Creep was addressed on the defensive / healing side, but not on the offensive side. There was a lot of new power creep on the offensive side this year (bonus damage for Eldritch Set, Charm of Quick Strike, Gregor's Tome, Ice Shard, all three Relic/Legendary class specific tokens, etc).

Even the healing power reduction was a lot more on the non-BIS group than the BIS slot. While the LoDS hit all the power levels, the Eldritch healing bonus will be unchanged for those with 5 Eldritch Tokens while a 60% reduction for those with two.

Taking into account Gregor's Tome and the +2 healing on LoDS, the BIS group actually gained four points of healing this year, and those with 2 Eldritch Items only lost a couple of points, although it can't be doubled onto a second target anymore.


With the 3 pices set bonus at 6, its a wash. If you are 4 piece you are plus 2. The gain of 4 is still a few years away. In any case much more was lost with the change from duplication to pool.


Whiplash is the word that comes to mind for me. If it was deemed a depowering/nerf year fine, salt rises but it needs to happen. Not fond of loosing some toys but seeing other stuff go under the radar or allowed to creep up. I agree neck slot was a spot of difference between various builds. Baring a lottery pull I admittedly don't plan on making it. My only relic's have been story (Icecrag/RoH).


I wonder if we're to point of having a watch list of hey guys these tokens are under consideration of changes or are 'at risk'. I'm sure Incognito can post his list of detested tokens would be a starting point.


As a side thought i wonder since TD collects all our email for surveys if a email blast or 2 could be sent out to encourage non forumites to participate on the token design. Or better give feedback on a set survey of tokens once we're in the late stage.
We're all the kind of people who enjoy the game on a "meta" level. We like talking about the game year-round. We buy tokens. We enjoy crafting. We get together during the off-season if we can. We are a very skewed demographic that way. -Raven

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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #11

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think there is a bit of a choice with some. The kilt, obviously, and I would argue the SRoEC isn't necessarily a given.


Changes to LoDS and the Eldritch set bonus pretty much force a switch to Dungeonbane as mitigation, and I think you’ll see a lot more SROEC being worn again as well, at least by healers. I used to be happy with a two-piece set, but if I don’t change anything I figure I’m at -24 hp of healing per spell. Going to four pieces with the Tome, I figure I’m only at -18 healing per spell. (Note the minuses don’t count the base healing that is no longer being doubled, so it’s worse.)

Like Franco, I kinda feel like I don’t have a real choice. Every Eldritch item is BIS, almost no matter what it actually does, because healing. A player has fewer HP than any monster, so +2 heals trumps +1 damage by a long shot IMO.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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All this discussion means we did it, right? 5 years 6 months ago #12

But there are several more players than monsters.

I agree that there is a larger need for healing. I will be using charm of spell swapping a LOT less for my druid builds.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 

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