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TOPIC: Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That"

Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #85

Xavon wrote:

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Raven wrote: and at the same time, I think we're our own worst enemies.


Actually, I'm pretty sure my worst enemy is chocolate. Sweet, sweet chocolate.

And I wouldn't say the Rings or Boots were that bad. Nor are the Kilts, when taken as a whole. The problem with the kilts is they are a min-maxer's dream. If the system could guarantee that the penalties had the same weight as the benefits (i.e. all those Wizards using Tavernbane that don't really care about DEX), then they wouldn't be viewed as quite so powerful.


Yes. UR Kilts were a min-maxers dream. And those are the voices of the people who are the most unhappy with the transmute.


So your telling me that if you had say a +2 long sword UR and Jeff proposed that you could transmute it into a legendary +1 long sword for a not insignificant cost you'd be all over that?

Please dont assume intent.


Your example with the sword is not the same thing at all. There's no negative. Straight +2 is better then +1. Agree with you there. And if all that matters on the Kilt is the +6 stat then I'd say your a min maxer

Solution for the Kilt - Downgrade the first two UR Kilts to what they should have been and exchange them for corrected UR's. Then everyone will be happy with the transmute!! Seriously folks, people got spoiled with the first two OP UR Kilts. If you don't want to transmute and still run with the OP UR Kilts there's nothing stopping you!

People push for OP Tokens. Then a year later they complain about them being OP and the dungeons being too easy. That's why were reprinting two of them this year. Lets reprint the first two Kilts as well to make everyone happy.


I think any down grades of existing tokens should be handled incredibly carefully as a last resort only. You can only pull that kind of switcharo once or twice before your consumers loose all confidence. I dont get how you cant see that?

Ok LoDs are OP, extreme case etc etc. No one is happy but they will live with it. Do it again next year and speaking for myself I'm selling all my UR+ tokens and playing normal.


Some what overly stated, but yes.

It is a matter of both faith in TPTB, and cost. Tokens are not cheap. The event itself is not cheap And while mistakes are inevitable, if they happen too often, we have to wonder why we are spending all of this money on these URs (or better) if we can't be sure they will do the same thing next year.


It's an issue in anything that is a collectible (card) token game. Look at MtG and how there are a list of banned cards or restricted cards. In the case of TD, they are doing a 'recall' of sorts, which is definitely different. That said, TD is smaller than MtG, and a pretty close knit community.


My main class took the double whammy (both with the LoDs and the CoS). I am happy I can still use my tokens, but I definitely blinked a few times at some early iterations of the LoDs which made them go from an absolute need to... the glasses heap of history. At least now, I can choose if they are useful or not (unlike a lot of tokens that just become outclassed and therefore lose value... like the year i bought lens of clear sight).


I don't like token recalls, but I can definitely deal with how they handled it (which the exchange and treasure draws).

I do think they should be rare, but TD has been on an exponential power curve over the last few years. As combo tokens got added, relics, and legendaries, the spread from starter player to token-ed out has become that much wider.


But in the end... creep / expansion / or removal has to inevitably occur to keep people feeding the token machine. Either power has to increase so the high end people continue to invest in new tokens, OR new slots have to continue to open up to keep investments occuring, OR older tokens have to be somehow 'removed' from play in order to make people fill the slots with something else. (I am not at all encouraging this - I think that would cause a mutiny... but I just look at certain dungeons or events being limited to what tokens might be able to be used in the future is a real possibility, just like the 2018 sealed runs).

And saying all this... its a complex issue. From collectors, to players, to DMs, to program developers, to those who are fully decked out, or those who have just started collecting tokens... All are serving potentially different gods.
Do well and you will have no need for ancestors. - Voltaire

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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #86

Great topic, great post.

I'm glad someone mentioned Magic: The Gathering. It means I get to lead into a game design philosophy I'm trying to get into my own game I'm working on that includes semi-collectible elements.

Richard Garfield versus recent MtG designs.

Recent MtG designers have more or less put a lot of effort into the rare cards being really powerful, and dumping garbage into the common cards, while uncommons are the bulk of strategy.

Richard Garfield never designed MtG to be played or designed that way. He actually preferred making the common cards really strong in strategies with the uncommons providing stronger support and the rares offering lynch pins that could make the commons strategy incredibly OP. In other words, Richard preferred a constructed deck that reflected the rarities of the cards themselves, with commons being the bulk of the deck and very few rares that were specialized for the strategies.

When he stepped away from designing is when MtG design changed all that around to make all the rare cards required to be the bulk of the deck because they had all the strongest strategies that worked well with other rares. You couldn't play at a competitive level unless you paid in hundreds if not thousands of dollars for the best cards.

Also, Richard never expected his card game to last for 25 years.

The recent Dominaria set was a Richard Garfield design set. It returned to that idea that the powerful cards were in the commons while the rares supported common level strategies. It was a breath of fresh air that pulled a lot of players back to the game, myself included... for that one set.

I bought booster boxes. I built decks. I played in sealed league and sealed tourneys. I had fun.

Then the next set, Core Set 2019 dropped, and I stopped playing again. I didn't like what I saw. Yes, it sort of continued the design philosophy of Dominaria, bringing out a few new cards to support the set while reprinting old cards that were good for the coming year. But it still predominantly carried that non-Richard design of making the rares the strongest and the commons garbage. At least it did in my eyes.

Now Richard is about to come out with KeyForge, a "unique deck game" where you buy a deck of cards that has been preassembled to provide a unique strategy, for every deck you buy. Every deck sold is different. No two are alike. And no, you can't combine decks. You aren't collecting cards and assembling the decks, you are buying a sealed deck and playing it straight as is. The bulk of the deck will be carried by the "common" cards, with the "rare" cards providing key lynchpins to the deck's strategy without being the must-play cards to win... as much as "common" and "rare" have any meaning in a game where the decks themselves are all unique.

I don't know if this concept of commons being the good base and rarer stuff helping to synergize that base has a place in TD. Likely not without a massive turning of the giant cruise ship that it has become. But it is interesting to think about a design philosophy that makes a long-time player excited about the common tokens more so than the URs and making them consider that common tier to be the bulk of their build by virtue of the design mechanics.

Having URs reward builds that consist of all other tokens being uncommon or lower, legendaries that give super bonuses that compound themselves the more common tokens are equipped, the rare token that is really good but doesn't allow more than two or three URs and no relics or legendaries... That could be really interesting to see in TD.

It'll never happen. Fun to think about from a game design perspective, however.
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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #87

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Oh... man...

Can you imagine: an UR which says something like:
+10 To hit and +10 damage for Final Combat only.
May not equip any other tokens above Common level.

?
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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #88

Raven wrote: Oh... man...

Can you imagine: an UR which says something like:
+10 To hit and +10 damage for Final Combat only.
May not equip any other tokens above Common level.

?


Great for 1st-year players that open one, certainly.

Worth consideration for people that have been playing a while but hasn't gotten a UR yet.

Tough to pick it up if you've already got a handful of URs.

Almost certainly a non-starter if you've gotten into Relics+.
...Unless you really like doing challenge runs with restrictions on number of tokens.


So, perfectly balanced!

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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #89

Raven wrote: Oh... man...

Can you imagine: an UR which says something like:
+10 To hit and +10 damage for Final Combat only.
May not equip any other tokens above Common level.

?


A relic that says:
+X to hit and damage, X=# of common tokens you have equipped. -8 to saves.

A legendary that says:
Deal X damage if 20 is slid, X=# of common and uncommon tokens equipped by entire party x3 (crit still applies). -10 AC.

A rare that says:
Your healing spells gain +X, X=# of common tokens target of spell has equipped. All damage you deal is halved (round down).

A UR that says:
Your damage spells gain +X, X=# of uncommon tokens you have equipped plus INT bonus. -6 CON.

Then you bottom load the commons and uncommons with little adds and bonuses and synergies and sets, with small, really small penalties to force choices.

Class specific tokens become really specific to the different builds per class.

To help with the wording, symbols or keywords could be used with explanations in the player's handbook and on the database.

Then the tokens can have sets themed around new class concepts and builds. You're not a Fighter, you're a Valkyrie-trained WarShield. You're not a Wizard, you're an Arcane Nexion. You're not a Paladin, you're a Holy Revenger. You're not a Cleric, you're a Voice of the Hallowed Realm. Alternate classes become tied to the token builds instead of needing to print cards, because the base classes are templates upon which the sets lay the alternate effects. These could be all tracked through an app easily enough to simplify coaching.

No way it would ever happen, but it's fun to think about, for me at least.
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