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TOPIC: Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That"

Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #1

  • Raven
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On the Topic of BUILD DIVERSITY

AKA "Give us Choices. No, Not Like That.*"

There's been a lot of discussion (as there always is around Token Development time) about build diversity, giving players hard choices to make, and preventing "Slot lock." Of course everyone - myself included - has ideas about how their favorite classes' tokens should work, but I've noticed certain themes come up, and wanted to make room for some discussion here, off the main token development threads.


Theme #1: Differing Build Paths
"Do I want a Ranged build or a Melee build?"

This seems to be one of the easiest ways to build diversity into builds. You provide competing tokens which support different build styles, and people collect down a certain path. Important factors to consider (in both token and dungeon design) is to make sure one approach is not inherently superior to the other. In other words, if dungeon design regularly nerfs melee fights but ranged always works, people will drift towards ranged builds. If STR tokens are king and there's no way for a ranged build to reach melee damage potential, then players will drift into melee builds. You've got to keep things balanced *and competitive* for this to work.

Good examples: Sniper Specs vs Goggles of Instant Analysis. They occupy the same slot, and support different build styles.

Bad examples: Gloves of the Flying Fist (best of both worlds!), Thor's Hammer, (and the previously proposed Rogue Legendary which gave Rogues both melee and ranged Sneak attack, as well as removing crit invulnerabilities.)

I hope that Jeff's announcement that he plans to use the Neck slot as a Class-defining slot will provide a number of interesting and conflicting build paths. Time will tell.


Theme #2: Avoiding Slot Lock

Slot Lock happens when there's only one token (or path of tokens) which are ideal for a certain class to put into a certain slot. For example, the Rogue's 1st Round Sneak Attack ability was locked into the boot slot for a long time. You could choose between the Rare Boots of Elvenkind, or UR Boots of the Underdark, but it didn't make sense for a Rogue to put anything else in their boot slot, or they loose a turn in combat just to use one of the abilities which makes them shine.

You also find Slot Lock when there's a clear BIS token. (Especially if its OOP, or a particularly expensive token.) Any attempts to provide a new token for the slot are met with resistance, and there's a lot of pressure to build something even "better than" the original, which compounds the problem.

Good Examples: Creating the Hood of ElvenKind to unlock the Boots slot for Rogues. Moving Treasure Enhancers to Charm and Ioun Stone slots, to unlock the Neck slot.

Bad Examples: High-end Strength Belts. Eldritch Boots. Potentially Eldritch Kilt.


#3: All-in-One Tokens
"It Slices! It Dices! It Juliennes Fries!"

One of the trends I've seen in token design, is people pushing to "free up slots" by putting all the cool effects into a single token. There's requests to have the Eldritch kilt give major stat boosts AND Free Movement. The previously proposed Rogue Legendary would have given 1st Round SA, and removed monster's crit immunity, and allowed Rogues to Sneak Attack at range.

The problem with that design, is that once you've got the all-in-one, there's no longer any push to have those special abilities available in other slots. Instead of advocating for another way to get Rogues their ranged Sneak Attack, high-end Rogue players would say, "We don't need that UR. Let's remove it from this year's line up in favor of something better."

Not to mention that if something potentially better did come along, you'd get people saying, "I couldn't possibly switch to that token, or I'd lose my X ability and Y ability too. I won't support this new design unless it also incorporates X and Y.

Good Examples: The way UR bard Instruments have been handled (You can swap 'em out, but you need to buy the individual instruments). The new Greaves. Io's Bow, which chose a different mechanic to be competitive with high-end melee builds. (Perhaps too competitive?)

Bad Examples: Thor's Hammer, which is +5, does some pretty wicked damage, has an extended crit range, AND functions as a ranged weapon. (Yes, it has a DEX requirement to make up for it... but for most classes, it's quite easy to meet that requirement. And getting easier.)


#4: Slotless tokens

Slotless tokens have really pushed the power creep, because they're automatically "BIS."
And once they're made, they can't be bumped out by another "better" token, so they're pretty much permanent.

This is a problem. I wish I knew how to fix it. (Without, ya know, giving up my Ro7P or Horns or Lamps, or...)


There's more I'd like to discuss, but I'm kinda drained from writing all this, and I don't want to build even more of a wall-o-text... so.... Any comments?



*hat tip to Brad Mortensen for the title inspiration.
"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Check out these awesome resources:
Cranston's Character Generator for iDevices or Android
Amorgen's Excel Character Generator
And the ever-useful Token DataBase , expertly maintained by Druegar.

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Last edit: by Raven.

Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #2

Raven wrote: #4: Slotless tokens

Slotless tokens have really pushed the power creep, because they're automatically "BIS."
And once they're made, they can't be bumped out by another "better" token, so they're pretty much permanent.

This is a problem. I wish I knew how to fix it. (Without, ya know, giving up my Ro7P or Horns or Lamps, or...)


There's more I'd like to discuss, but I'm kinda drained from writing all this, and I don't want to build even more of a wall-o-text... so.... Any comments?



*hat tip to Brad Mortensen for the title inspiration.

I think Rob suggested setting a limit on the number of slotless tokens you can equip (sure it would be on the honor system) but it is an idea.

Ed
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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #3

Sorry my post was out of order. Great post and thread topic!

A lot of what TPTB have to deal with is lack of planning on the account that they probably didn't think this game was going to be this big and here this long.

I believe that is changing and a serious attempt is being made to plan further out so they can avoid some of these situations. Will they avoid them all, clearly not especially when dealing with all the existing tokens. But planning, and great feedback like this, will smooth the road.

Ed
Useful Links:
TD Character Creator
Amorgen's Excel Char Gen Tool
Token DataBase
Talking TD Podcast

TD Accomplishments:
Member of the first team to survive Epic True Grind
1st Solo NM as Poly Druid
Proud member of Gas Station Sushi
Don't Nerf Our Tokens!

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Last edit: by MasterED.

Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #4

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I think one thing we also need to be mindful of is nonBIS uncommon/Rare level players. They make up most of the population and are often forgotten during design because we're so hyper focused on the UR+ items.

For example this year, it seems like Rogue dps is being addressed at UR+ with second sneak attack items (which I'm very happy about) but the problem persists for red rogue.



I also think that we might need to start thinking of highend players as a class in and of themselves. Is it really a build diversity problem that all high end players wear the eldritched set, Or is it a good thing that you don't see Eldritched players clustered around specific classes. Not sure if that holds water but IMO its a perspective worth considering.
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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #5

Raven, you've got a good summary overall.

I'm a bit concerned with the choice of the Neck slot for the class-specific Legendaries, for the exact reason that currently that is where I see people with the most variations in their builds.

It is pretty common in high end builds to see different people choose to build with:
* Charm Necklace
* Amulet of Treasure Finding/Horn of Plenty
* Amulet of Wonder
* One of the various physical stat boosters
* A more class-specific UR (Amulet of Guarding, Medallion of Mystic Mouth)
* Even some Rares see play at high level

Will people still choose any of those over their class-specific legendary?

Maybe since we are talking Legendaries this may impact less than 1% of the players. So overall build diversity maybe won't change much?

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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #6

My idea was that additional character classes be created that would have different build demands. A finesse rogue for example, where Dex was more important than Str.

The delicate balance is that TD has significant dependence on token sales. How to build diversity, avoid egregious power creep and at the same time maintain sales. That's the challenge
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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #7

Fantastic post. A lot of great points were made. Thanks for taking the time, Raven.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob C

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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #8

Point of order - the Hammers have a min DEX requirement, not STR

And it’s always chafed me that Clerics, whose expertise includes dieties and blunt weapons, are the class that finds it hardest to get to that minimum so that they can wield a god’s fricking HAMMER (we need +9, vs say Rangers and Rogue only needing +3 at level 4, and a mere +1 at level 5.)

WTF is that :angry: ?!?!? :angry:

But I digress... you were saying?

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #9

Fun discussion.

Stupid idea I’m sure, but what if the new class-specific legendary tokens were all slotless? Sort of representing a new skill (rather than an item, perhaps) acquired over the course of one’s legendary adventures? Like dwarf fighters could get some extra benefit from taunting, like adding retribution damage the round after taunting. This obviously wouldn’t really work for new class specific weapons and armor, but we already have those legendary tokens for the most part (other than the super sweet Paladin holy avenger). And while slotless items are always BIS, as Raven said, might this free up people to do difffent things in their builds with slots that are otherwise locked down for legendary items?

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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #10

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Fiddy wrote: Raven, you've got a good summary overall.

I'm a bit concerned with the choice of the Neck slot for the class-specific Legendaries, for the exact reason that currently that is where I see people with the most variations in their builds.

It is pretty common in high end builds to see different people choose to build with:
* Charm Necklace
* Amulet of Treasure Finding/Horn of Plenty
* Amulet of Wonder
* One of the various physical stat boosters
* A more class-specific UR (Amulet of Guarding, Medallion of Mystic Mouth)
* Even some Rares see play at high level

Will people still choose any of those over their class-specific legendary?

Maybe since we are talking Legendaries this may impact less than 1% of the players. So overall build diversity maybe won't change much?


Honestly Im just glad I have a charm of avarice or I wouldn't even consider making a legendary neck because AoTf is locked in. Thats just the harsh economics of it, and also a good bit of the reason I hope all future class legendaries aren't necks.
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Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #11

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Brad Mortensen wrote: Point of order - the Hammers have a min DEX requirement, not STR


Thx. Fixed!

As for what I was saying....

Yeah. I think you & I agree on a lot more things than we disagree on.
"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Check out these awesome resources:
Cranston's Character Generator for iDevices or Android
Amorgen's Excel Character Generator
And the ever-useful Token DataBase , expertly maintained by Druegar.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That" 5 years 6 months ago #12

MasterED wrote:

Raven wrote: #4: Slotless tokens

Slotless tokens have really pushed the power creep, because they're automatically "BIS."
And once they're made, they can't be bumped out by another "better" token, so they're pretty much permanent.

This is a problem. I wish I knew how to fix it. (Without, ya know, giving up my Ro7P or Horns or Lamps, or...)


There's more I'd like to discuss, but I'm kinda drained from writing all this, and I don't want to build even more of a wall-o-text... so.... Any comments?



*hat tip to Brad Mortensen for the title inspiration.

I think Rob suggested setting a limit on the number of slotless tokens you can equip (sure it would be on the honor system) but it is an idea.

Ed


I suggested it at our last TD dinner. I think Jeff should seriously consider a cap on all Slotless items. It's a great decision for the long term health of the game. Limits power creep, promotes build diversity, etc. etc. And it's more realistic. There's always been some sort of "encumberence" system in place for D&D. Why for instance can I only wear two rings when I have 10 fingers? Because TPTB felt that was the right limit. So why should characters gear not be limited in the same way? "Because I paid for all these Tokens and want to be able to use every power available" isn't a good answer. And to me neither is "well just do it as a themed run". Anyone limit the number of slots they use on Epic? Fighting the Lorigorgon? What the limit should be I don't know. 10 maybe? 15? If there is no limit and the game continues on then 10 years from now you'll have people lugging tons of Tokens through the dungeon (did I mention I have 7 different Horns) and they'll be able to thwart every challenge in the game. It WILL happen. Eventually. Plus with a limit I actually think you'll get people using these Tokens more. How often do people go through and realize after the fact that they forgot to use a slotless item? If they have to make a hard choice during a build maybe they will get used more.

Oh and Raven - Great post! You will be the first person I nominate for the Token design team if Jeff ever asks for help.
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