TOPIC: Amulet of Treasure Finding -Possibility of reprint

Original Discussion began here:

I figured that this topic deserved it's own thread instead of piggy-backing MatthewHayward 's Fleece thread.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: So don't hate me and I know were not even remotely ready to talk about reprints yet, but didn't Jeff say there would be some cool TE transmute involving the AoTF?
If so, without a reprint, that seems to be rewarding a very small group of individuals. If most have been transmuted into CoA, why would he need to transmute that particular token?

The "very small group" that will be "rewarded" are those who purchased large quantities of tokens from True Dungeon, or those who stimulated demand among the first group by buying in the secondary market.

All the information about the future URTE policy was public when AoTF was in print, so the only possible reason to not have AoTF is:

1. Weren't interested / couldn't afford it while in print despite announcement it would be part of a future transmute.
2. Weren't a token collector at the time those tokens were in print.

It's a bit hard to understand the perspective that members of those two groups should get a reprint of AoTF at the expense of people who sent TD hundreds or thousands of dollars in 2015/16 for the privilege of holding a collectible token asset for around a decade so it could be transmuted.

True Dungeon Tokens are collectibles. If TD just reprints every token that appreciates, it ceases to be a collectible. If TD tokens cease to be a collectible, I suspect token revenues would substantially decrease.

I'd guess the reason Jeff announced the AoTF was going to be part of a future transmute while it was in print was to help spike sales. Since it doesn't stack with the CoA, there wouldn't be a reason for people with a CoA to get one otherwise.

I agree with Matthew that reprinting the AoTF would penalize people that tied up hundreds or thousands of dollars for a decade to make the transmute.

I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

As for the members who sent TD 100s/1000s of dollars 2 years ago - they will still own AoTF and would still be able to transmute them into the new Treasure Enhancer. So how in the world would these members be penalized by a reprint?

Finally - while I disagree with their argument as to why AoTF shouldn't be reprinted, I ultimately believe it will not be anyway.

100%, Arnold.

I’ve never been a fan of reprints either. But, I’ve come to accept that they will happen regardless, so that’s why I seldom pay older high-priced tokens anymore. After the Keen Slayer came out and everyone assumed it was an alternative to reprinting the Mighty Longbow, but then it got reprinted anyway, I was done.

In my first few years of collecting I grabbed up the high-demand tokens first in the mistaken belief they’d never go down. I didn’t realize they could be reprinted 5-10 years down the road. My bad, but nobody protected me from losing a couple of thousand in value.

I don’t see AoTF as any different from any other token. If it had been stated unequivocally at the time that it was unreprintable, that would be different.

But it wasn’t. And just because some chose to assume it was, and stockpiled a bunch in anticipation of a big payday in a few years, well, that’s no reason to make their wish come true. And I feel no obligation to protect them anymore than they felt to protect me, or others like me.

As you say, they wouldn’t be hurt by a reprint. They just won’t get to turn a 200-1000% profit. Not my problem.

As I say, I hate reprints. But if we’re going to have them, this is one token I really hope and pray will be.

Arnold wrote: Original Discussion began here:

I figured that this topic deserved it's own thread instead of piggy-backing MatthewHayward 's Fleece thread.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: So don't hate me and I know were not even remotely ready to talk about reprints yet, but didn't Jeff say there would be some cool TE transmute involving the AoTF?
If so, without a reprint, that seems to be rewarding a very small group of individuals. If most have been transmuted into CoA, why would he need to transmute that particular token?

The "very small group" that will be "rewarded" are those who purchased large quantities of tokens from True Dungeon, or those who stimulated demand among the first group by buying in the secondary market.

All the information about the future URTE policy was public when AoTF was in print, so the only possible reason to not have AoTF is:

1. Weren't interested / couldn't afford it while in print despite announcement it would be part of a future transmute.
2. Weren't a token collector at the time those tokens were in print.

It's a bit hard to understand the perspective that members of those two groups should get a reprint of AoTF at the expense of people who sent TD hundreds or thousands of dollars in 2015/16 for the privilege of holding a collectible token asset for around a decade so it could be transmuted.

True Dungeon Tokens are collectibles. If TD just reprints every token that appreciates, it ceases to be a collectible. If TD tokens cease to be a collectible, I suspect token revenues would substantially decrease.

I'd guess the reason Jeff announced the AoTF was going to be part of a future transmute while it was in print was to help spike sales. Since it doesn't stack with the CoA, there wouldn't be a reason for people with a CoA to get one otherwise.

I agree with Matthew that reprinting the AoTF would penalize people that tied up hundreds or thousands of dollars for a decade to make the transmute.

I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

As for the members who sent TD 100s/1000s of dollars 2 years ago - they will still own AoTF and would still be able to transmute them into the new Treasure Enhancer. So how in the world would these members be penalized by a reprint?

Finally - while I disagree with their argument as to why AoTF shouldn't be reprinted, I ultimately believe it will not be anyway.

Not to delve too deeply into a debate on something that might or might not happen for 8 or more years, but to answer your question, someone that spends significant money on a UR that they get no current use out of, solely to make a transmute 10 years later, is harmed because of the lost opportunity cost if it is reprinted. They could have instead spent that money on something that they get current use out of, or invested it, and then bought the reprinted AoTF 10 years later. It is a significant sunk cost to essentially put hundreds or thousands of dollars on the shelf for 10 years, getting no value or use or earned interest out of it during those 10 years.

On the broader topic, I kind of doubt that TE URS will be reprinted in the foreseeable future because I think it would have a huge impact on annual token sales (in my opinion). Bunches of TE tokens are bought to stockpile for future resale, and if they start getting reprinted, that might cause a big drop in sales of the current ones, as people will likely not risk stockpiling as many. I think TE URS are treated differently because they drive sales much more than other URS.

One thing I think that could change that is if Jeff at some point decides he doesn't want to create new TE tokens. In that case, he might be better off reprinting old TE URs than not offering any at all for sale. If course, that decision won't happen until 2027.

who F'ing cares right now. this topic is 6 years away. no sense in getting people worked up and arguing now. hell, some of us could get hit by a Big Mack truck by then.

Arnold wrote: I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

Actually - basically it does.

This is because with TD PyP's get into circulation by selection as a PyP.

If AoTF were reprinted but only available via random chance in 1/2,000 packs (which is their natural collation rate), or a handful thrown into the treasure boxes, that would be fine for me.

When a reprint happens in TD, the price of the token is pegged to ~$90 overnight, where it stays for at least 2 years.

This is different from reprints in Magic the Gathering or other collectibles.


To see an illustration, within the last 2 years +1 Mighty Longbow was going for $250+ on eBay.

Today I doubt you could sell one for $101.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: who F'ing cares right now. this topic is 6 years away. no sense in getting people worked up and arguing now. hell, some of us could get hit by a Big Mack truck by then.

Nothing wrong with a good natured debate, even if it doesn't have much impact for years. I completely agree that it's pointless for anyone to get even mildly upset over it at this point.

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: who F'ing cares right now. this topic is 6 years away. no sense in getting people worked up and arguing now. hell, some of us could get hit by a Big Mack truck by then.

Nothing wrong with a good natured debate, even if it doesn't have much impact for years. I completely agree that it's pointless for anyone to get even mildly upset over it at this point.

If people need things to do. They can road trip to my house and help me sort and do inventory.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: who F'ing cares right now. this topic is 6 years away. no sense in getting people worked up and arguing now. hell, some of us could get hit by a Big Mack truck by then.

Nothing wrong with a good natured debate, even if it doesn't have much impact for years. I completely agree that it's pointless for anyone to get even mildly upset over it at this point.

If people need things to do. They can road trip to my house and help me sort and do inventory.

I guess in a way I'll already be helping you do that when your package reaches me.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: Original Discussion began here:

I figured that this topic deserved it's own thread instead of piggy-backing MatthewHayward 's Fleece thread.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: So don't hate me and I know were not even remotely ready to talk about reprints yet, but didn't Jeff say there would be some cool TE transmute involving the AoTF?
If so, without a reprint, that seems to be rewarding a very small group of individuals. If most have been transmuted into CoA, why would he need to transmute that particular token?

The "very small group" that will be "rewarded" are those who purchased large quantities of tokens from True Dungeon, or those who stimulated demand among the first group by buying in the secondary market.

All the information about the future URTE policy was public when AoTF was in print, so the only possible reason to not have AoTF is:

1. Weren't interested / couldn't afford it while in print despite announcement it would be part of a future transmute.
2. Weren't a token collector at the time those tokens were in print.

It's a bit hard to understand the perspective that members of those two groups should get a reprint of AoTF at the expense of people who sent TD hundreds or thousands of dollars in 2015/16 for the privilege of holding a collectible token asset for around a decade so it could be transmuted.

True Dungeon Tokens are collectibles. If TD just reprints every token that appreciates, it ceases to be a collectible. If TD tokens cease to be a collectible, I suspect token revenues would substantially decrease.

I'd guess the reason Jeff announced the AoTF was going to be part of a future transmute while it was in print was to help spike sales. Since it doesn't stack with the CoA, there wouldn't be a reason for people with a CoA to get one otherwise.

I agree with Matthew that reprinting the AoTF would penalize people that tied up hundreds or thousands of dollars for a decade to make the transmute.

I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

As for the members who sent TD 100s/1000s of dollars 2 years ago - they will still own AoTF and would still be able to transmute them into the new Treasure Enhancer. So how in the world would these members be penalized by a reprint?

Finally - while I disagree with their argument as to why AoTF shouldn't be reprinted, I ultimately believe it will not be anyway.

Not to delve too deeply into a debate on something that might or might not happen for 8 or more years, but to answer your question, someone that spends significant money on a UR that they get no current use out of, solely to make a transmute 10 years later, is harmed because of the lost opportunity cost if it is reprinted. They could have instead spent that money on something that they get current use out of, or invested it, and then bought the reprinted AoTF 10 years later. It is a significant sunk cost to essentially put hundreds or thousands of dollars on the shelf for 10 years, getting no value or use or earned interest out of it during those 10 years.

Actually, this is exactly why i sold all my AoTF. I also believe that there is no way Jeff will require a 10 year old token for the 2nd TE legendary without providing an alternate recipe. We have already seen this with CoA. Except this time, there is no promise to not reprint the oldest UR. I also think it works nicely as a way to allow the newest players have another shot at the CoA. But, even if there is no reprint, there will almost certainly be a second recipe.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: Original Discussion began here:

I figured that this topic deserved it's own thread instead of piggy-backing MatthewHayward 's Fleece thread.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: So don't hate me and I know were not even remotely ready to talk about reprints yet, but didn't Jeff say there would be some cool TE transmute involving the AoTF?
If so, without a reprint, that seems to be rewarding a very small group of individuals. If most have been transmuted into CoA, why would he need to transmute that particular token?

The "very small group" that will be "rewarded" are those who purchased large quantities of tokens from True Dungeon, or those who stimulated demand among the first group by buying in the secondary market.

All the information about the future URTE policy was public when AoTF was in print, so the only possible reason to not have AoTF is:

1. Weren't interested / couldn't afford it while in print despite announcement it would be part of a future transmute.
2. Weren't a token collector at the time those tokens were in print.

It's a bit hard to understand the perspective that members of those two groups should get a reprint of AoTF at the expense of people who sent TD hundreds or thousands of dollars in 2015/16 for the privilege of holding a collectible token asset for around a decade so it could be transmuted.

True Dungeon Tokens are collectibles. If TD just reprints every token that appreciates, it ceases to be a collectible. If TD tokens cease to be a collectible, I suspect token revenues would substantially decrease.

I'd guess the reason Jeff announced the AoTF was going to be part of a future transmute while it was in print was to help spike sales. Since it doesn't stack with the CoA, there wouldn't be a reason for people with a CoA to get one otherwise.

I agree with Matthew that reprinting the AoTF would penalize people that tied up hundreds or thousands of dollars for a decade to make the transmute.

I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

As for the members who sent TD 100s/1000s of dollars 2 years ago - they will still own AoTF and would still be able to transmute them into the new Treasure Enhancer. So how in the world would these members be penalized by a reprint?

Finally - while I disagree with their argument as to why AoTF shouldn't be reprinted, I ultimately believe it will not be anyway.

On the broader topic, I kind of doubt that TE URS will be reprinted in the foreseeable future because I think it would have a huge impact on annual token sales (in my opinion). Bunches of TE tokens are bought to stockpile for future resale, and if they start getting reprinted, that might cause a big drop in sales of the current ones, as people will likely not risk stockpiling as many. I think TE URS are treated differently because they drive sales much more than other URS.

One thing I think that could change that is if Jeff at some point decides he doesn't want to create new TE tokens. In that case, he might be better off reprinting old TE URs than not offering any at all for sale. If course, that decision won't happen until 2027.

Are token sales down this year because there is no new TE? I dont think we have the info answer that question, but it seems like sales are doing just fine.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

Actually - basically it does.

This is because with TD PyP's get into circulation by selection as a PyP.

If AoTF were reprinted but only available via random chance in 1/20,000 packs (which is their natural collation rate), or a handful thrown into the treasure boxes, that would be fine for me.

When a reprint happens in TD, the price of the token is pegged to ~$90 overnight, where it stays for at least 2 years.

This is different from reprints in Magic the Gathering or other collectibles.


To see an illustration, within the last 2 years +1 Mighty Longbow was going for $250+ on eBay.

Today I doubt you could sell one for $101.

'PYP = $90 for two years' simply is not true. While i agree that such a statement makes sense, we have seen that to not be the case. Many URs have sold for over $100 while they are still in print...and as someone who buys and sells tokens, i find it very frustrating. Why are people paying that much? But we digress...i believe ypur point was that a reprint results in immediate lost value, which is true, but no need to exaggerate the impact it has.

kurtreznor wrote: Are token sales down this year because there is no new TE? I dont think we have the info answer that question, but it seems like sales are doing just fine.

One indicator: it seems like the number of GTs claimed to date are in line with previous years. (If anyone with more time than I wants to validate against previous threads, have at it.)

So, whether up or down, I’ll go out on a limb and say they are in line with TDA’s expectations. For whatever that’s worth.