TOPIC: Con Expansion == Swimming in Fleece?

Bob Chasan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Harlax wrote: With new Cons, escpecially Pax which has very different geography, the player base should expand. As should demand. Eventually.

I think the player base expanding will bring the market price down further. More players = more pulls = more fleece. And there's a decent number of TE Tokens in circulation that will allow newer players to generate additional pulls. Plus we have the Gold Nugget coming up next year which will add more pulls. TPTB could always water down the treasure mix if they felt they needed to.

You’re mistaken. It’s not a problem for TPTB. It’s only a problem for those wishing to SELL them. TPTB do not sell them they only trade for them.

I never said it was a problem for TPTB

You are correct you Never said it was a problem for TPTB however.....
The assumption comes from TPTB “could always water down the treasure mix if they felt they needed to”
They would only make a change to correct something, not sure what to call it?

Just stating that they have options if they feel like there's a lot of Fleece floating around. Water the mix or increase the requirements for the transmutes. The fact that they increased the transmute requirements for Fleece this year doesn't surprise me.

jon wrote: So someone like me who is interested in making legendary / exalted , would it be better to save money on to getting Te equipment first or just buy materials when I get money?

No one can answer that for you. I can just give you some things to consider when you try to decide.

One approach is to do an ROI (return on investment) analysis.

Pick a value for a treasure chip, like $4, and divide the value of the loot into the cost of the TE.

For example: Silver Nuggets go for $100, and give you 2x$4 in loot, so you would expect to have to play 100/8 = 12.5 times to make back your investment.

So how many times a year do you expect to play?

Some caveats - you could get lucky and draw a relic or something and recoup your investment in one game. Or, you could pull nothing but uncommons and it would take you a century.

Also, UR TEs are the one tokens almost guaranteed to hold their value, but nothing is guaranteed. I’m theory you should be able to sell them sometime down the road for at least what you pay. HoP will never be reprinted, but there has been no decree that the others won’t be. (But there will be lots of people screaming pro and con if AoTF, CoGF, or RoR ever come up for reprint.) So that’s something else to consider.

And drawing treasure is fun.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

jon wrote: So someone like me who is interested in making legendary / exalted , would it be better to save money on to getting Te equipment first or just buy materials when I get money?

No one can answer that for you. I can just give you some things to consider when you try to decide.

One approach is to do an ROI (return on investment) analysis.

Pick a value for a treasure chip, like $4, and divide the value of the loot into the cost of the TE.

For example: Silver Nuggets go for $100, and give you 2x$4 in loot, so you would expect to have to play 100/8 = 12.5 times to make back your investment.

So how many times a year do you expect to play?

Some caveats - you could get lucky and draw a relic or something and recoup your investment in one game. Or, you could pull nothing but uncommons and it would take you a century.

Also, UR TEs are the one tokens almost guaranteed to hold their value, but nothing is guaranteed. I’m theory you should be able to sell them sometime down the road for at least what you pay. HoP will never be reprinted, but there has been no decree that the others won’t be. (But there will be lots of people screaming pro and con if AoTF, CoGF, or RoR ever come up for reprint.) So that’s something else to consider.

And drawing treasure is fun.

I wouldn't be surprised to see an AOTF reprint sometime. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if it is never reprinted.

FWIW...

Jeff Martin wrote: Due to many factors and the development of the "Nugget" Ioun Stones, I thought it would be best to go ahead and make these clarifications.

1) We will publish an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2017, an Ioun Stone Gold Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2019, and an Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2021. These three tokens will stack with each other because they have slightly different names. They will stack with the Charm of Avarice.

2) There will be no transmuted token that uses any of the three Ioun Stone Nuggets in its recipe.

3) Assuming Gen Con and TD is still around in about ten years (2026) , the Amulet of Treasure Finding will be used in a transmuted token recipe to make a better treasure-enhancing token. It will be combined with whatever TE-tokens come out in 2023 and 2025.

I know it is a bit crazy to make these pronouncements this far into the future, but it appears to be needed. Thanks for your patience and support.

Harlax wrote: FWIW...

Jeff Martin wrote: Due to many factors and the development of the "Nugget" Ioun Stones, I thought it would be best to go ahead and make these clarifications.

1) We will publish an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2017, an Ioun Stone Gold Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2019, and an Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2021. These three tokens will stack with each other because they have slightly different names. They will stack with the Charm of Avarice.

2) There will be no transmuted token that uses any of the three Ioun Stone Nuggets in its recipe.

3) Assuming Gen Con and TD is still around in about ten years (2026) , the Amulet of Treasure Finding will be used in a transmuted token recipe to make a better treasure-enhancing token. It will be combined with whatever TE-tokens come out in 2023 and 2025.

I know it is a bit crazy to make these pronouncements this far into the future, but it appears to be needed. Thanks for your patience and support.

it wouldn't be unreasonable to think there might be an AoTF reprint in 2027 (or at least many requests for such a reprint). that gives an advantage to everyone who has the originals allowing them to transmute 2 years sooner, and covers another 2-year period for treasure enhancers without raising the cap. also, I just realized that not only does that open the option for the new treasure legendary for players who start during the nugget years, but it also lets them go for the charm of avarice, since 7x AoTF is an option for that.

I dobt think a flood of fleeces are a reason for anyone to panic. Historically when we've been glutted on a trade good TPTB have just adjusted the recepies for a few years to suck up the surpluses. This years recepies have greater fleece requirements and in theory new players are in the mix, I suspect Jeff will find the balance guven time.

Re treasure enhancers, Ive come around to thinking they will probably never be re printed. Everytime one has come up its been replaced by something new. Inused to worry about us getting to the point were the mix had to be watered down but it the player base grows I kind of think folks with all the treasure enhancers might just become a small group of outliers. Folks dont attend cons forever after all.

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote: FWIW...

Jeff Martin wrote: Due to many factors and the development of the "Nugget" Ioun Stones, I thought it would be best to go ahead and make these clarifications.

1) We will publish an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2017, an Ioun Stone Gold Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2019, and an Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2021. These three tokens will stack with each other because they have slightly different names. They will stack with the Charm of Avarice.

2) There will be no transmuted token that uses any of the three Ioun Stone Nuggets in its recipe.

3) Assuming Gen Con and TD is still around in about ten years (2026) , the Amulet of Treasure Finding will be used in a transmuted token recipe to make a better treasure-enhancing token. It will be combined with whatever TE-tokens come out in 2023 and 2025.

I know it is a bit crazy to make these pronouncements this far into the future, but it appears to be needed. Thanks for your patience and support.

it wouldn't be unreasonable to think there might be an AoTF reprint in 2027 (or at least many requests for such a reprint). that gives an advantage to everyone who has the originals allowing them to transmute 2 years sooner, and covers another 2-year period for treasure enhancers without raising the cap. also, I just realized that not only does that open the option for the new treasure legendary for players who start during the nugget years, but it also lets them go for the charm of avarice, since 7x AoTF is an option for that.

i dont think it would be reprinted. I think it would act like the HoP in the CoA recipe...it would just be worth more points toward the new TE

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote: FWIW...

Jeff Martin wrote: Due to many factors and the development of the "Nugget" Ioun Stones, I thought it would be best to go ahead and make these clarifications.

1) We will publish an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2017, an Ioun Stone Gold Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2019, and an Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2021. These three tokens will stack with each other because they have slightly different names. They will stack with the Charm of Avarice.

2) There will be no transmuted token that uses any of the three Ioun Stone Nuggets in its recipe.

3) Assuming Gen Con and TD is still around in about ten years (2026) , the Amulet of Treasure Finding will be used in a transmuted token recipe to make a better treasure-enhancing token. It will be combined with whatever TE-tokens come out in 2023 and 2025.

I know it is a bit crazy to make these pronouncements this far into the future, but it appears to be needed. Thanks for your patience and support.

it wouldn't be unreasonable to think there might be an AoTF reprint in 2027 (or at least many requests for such a reprint). that gives an advantage to everyone who has the originals allowing them to transmute 2 years sooner, and covers another 2-year period for treasure enhancers without raising the cap. also, I just realized that not only does that open the option for the new treasure legendary for players who start during the nugget years, but it also lets them go for the charm of avarice, since 7x AoTF is an option for that.

i dont think it would be reprinted. I think it would act like the HoP in the CoA recipe...it would just be worth more points toward the new TE

This solution makes more sense to me. It's consistent with how they handled CoA. It gives more benefit to those who hung onto their AoTF, but doesn't block anyone else from accumulating the ingredients needed to transmute. I'm all about rewarding long time token collectors, but I also don't want to exclude newbies who are the future life-blood of the game.

Dave wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote: FWIW...

Jeff Martin wrote: Due to many factors and the development of the "Nugget" Ioun Stones, I thought it would be best to go ahead and make these clarifications.

1) We will publish an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2017, an Ioun Stone Gold Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2019, and an Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2021. These three tokens will stack with each other because they have slightly different names. They will stack with the Charm of Avarice.

2) There will be no transmuted token that uses any of the three Ioun Stone Nuggets in its recipe.

3) Assuming Gen Con and TD is still around in about ten years (2026) , the Amulet of Treasure Finding will be used in a transmuted token recipe to make a better treasure-enhancing token. It will be combined with whatever TE-tokens come out in 2023 and 2025.

I know it is a bit crazy to make these pronouncements this far into the future, but it appears to be needed. Thanks for your patience and support.

it wouldn't be unreasonable to think there might be an AoTF reprint in 2027 (or at least many requests for such a reprint). that gives an advantage to everyone who has the originals allowing them to transmute 2 years sooner, and covers another 2-year period for treasure enhancers without raising the cap. also, I just realized that not only does that open the option for the new treasure legendary for players who start during the nugget years, but it also lets them go for the charm of avarice, since 7x AoTF is an option for that.

i dont think it would be reprinted. I think it would act like the HoP in the CoA recipe...it would just be worth more points toward the new TE

This solution makes more sense to me. It's consistent with how they handled CoA. It gives more benefit to those who hung onto their AoTF, but doesn't block anyone else from accumulating the ingredients needed to transmute. I'm all about rewarding long time token collectors, but I also don't want to exclude newbies who are the future life-blood of the game.

I'd be good with that.

Harlax wrote:

Dave wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote: FWIW...

Jeff Martin wrote: Due to many factors and the development of the "Nugget" Ioun Stones, I thought it would be best to go ahead and make these clarifications.

1) We will publish an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2017, an Ioun Stone Gold Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2019, and an Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2021. These three tokens will stack with each other because they have slightly different names. They will stack with the Charm of Avarice.

2) There will be no transmuted token that uses any of the three Ioun Stone Nuggets in its recipe.

3) Assuming Gen Con and TD is still around in about ten years (2026) , the Amulet of Treasure Finding will be used in a transmuted token recipe to make a better treasure-enhancing token. It will be combined with whatever TE-tokens come out in 2023 and 2025.

I know it is a bit crazy to make these pronouncements this far into the future, but it appears to be needed. Thanks for your patience and support.

it wouldn't be unreasonable to think there might be an AoTF reprint in 2027 (or at least many requests for such a reprint). that gives an advantage to everyone who has the originals allowing them to transmute 2 years sooner, and covers another 2-year period for treasure enhancers without raising the cap. also, I just realized that not only does that open the option for the new treasure legendary for players who start during the nugget years, but it also lets them go for the charm of avarice, since 7x AoTF is an option for that.

i dont think it would be reprinted. I think it would act like the HoP in the CoA recipe...it would just be worth more points toward the new TE

This solution makes more sense to me. It's consistent with how they handled CoA. It gives more benefit to those who hung onto their AoTF, but doesn't block anyone else from accumulating the ingredients needed to transmute. I'm all about rewarding long time token collectors, but I also don't want to exclude newbies who are the future life-blood of the game.

I'd be good with that.

I think there would be a pretty vocal contingent against reprinting the AoTF as well, especially before the prior TE tokens get reprinted (RoR, CoGF). Personally, I suspect that the TE tokens won't ever be reprinted, as I think that would seriously impact the sales of future TE tokens (people would be stockpiling FAR less I suspect). I doubt True Dungeon will risk killing the golden goose.

For the next transmute, I'd guess it will be handled like the CoA. There will probably be a recipe incorporating the AoTF and the TEs from 2023 and 2025, and maybe a second recipe using a point system and not requiring the out of print TEs. Although, perhaps there will just be the one recipe since Jeff announced in advance what the plan was.

Mike Steele wrote: I think there would be a pretty vocal contingent against reprinting the AoTF as well...

So what? There’s a “vocal contingent” opposed to every reprint. Only the HoP has been declared on the “never reprint” list. There’s no logical reason to add AoTF to the list retroactively. With recent reprints of Mighty Bow, Tulz, RFB, and all the rest I think there are a lot of people expecting an AoTF reprint.

If it was NEVER going to be reprinted, that should have been explicitly stated before it went OOP and so many got sucked into CoAs.

But we’re way off the original topic, as so frequently happens around here.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I think there would be a pretty vocal contingent against reprinting the AoTF as well...

So what? There’s a “vocal contingent” opposed to every reprint. Only the HoP has been declared on the “never reprint” list. There’s no logical reason to add AoTF to the list retroactively. With recent reprints of Mighty Bow, Tulz, RFB, and all the rest I think there are a lot of people expecting an AoTF reprint.

If it was NEVER going to be reprinted, that should have been explicitly stated before it went OOP and so many got sucked into CoAs.

But we’re way off the original topic, as so frequently happens around here.

Brad, I certainly wasn't stating policy, just what my opinion of what will happen, with the definite understanding that it's just an educated guess and I could be completely wrong. I totally respect that you may have an entirely different opinion. I completely agree with you that True Dungeon has every right to reprint TE tokens (other than HoP), I just suspect they won't. There's no point of anyone actually getting into an argument about it for at least 8 years, as the TEs are mapped out through 2026.