TOPIC: Transmute Confusion

So I have been looking for a good ranged weapon for me to work towards for my Bard since I want her to kick ass.

I decided I liked the +2 Keen Longbow
tokendb.com/token/2-keen-longbow/

Which I realized was a transmute for the +2 Keen Slayer Bow
tokendb.com/token/2-keen-slayer-bow/

Which then transmutes into the amazing Io's +4 Ultra Keen Slayer Bow
tokendb.com/token/ios-4-ultra-keen-slayer-bow/

However once the keen Longbow is transmuted to the keen Slayer Bow Bard is dropped from the list of classes able to use it and is also not able to use Io's Bow. Which confuses me since the Keen Longbow is a main ingredient to make the other two. So I would like to know why Bard was dropped from the classes able to use this awesome legendary and the transmute. If it's a matter of Dex requirement I'm pretty sure Bards can still meet the required 20 but I will double check my math for that.

Anyway if anyone could explain this that would be great as I'd like a good ranged weapon and not just the rare sling I'm using now.

Bards can use the +2 Assasins crossbow.

Lady Brittany wrote: So I would like to know why Bard was dropped from the classes able to use this awesome legendary and the transmute. If it's a matter of Dex requirement I'm pretty sure Bards can still meet the required 20 but I will double check my math for that.

Any class can make the dex requirement (at least +16 DEX is available).

I wasn't paying attention during 2014 token design, which would have been happening around this time 3 years ago, but at a guess it was considered too good for a Bard ranged weapon.

Frankly I don't see much in past token design that would justify that - Bards can use every longbow in the game except the +2 and +4 Slayer bows.

Ignoring the +2 and +4 Slayer bows:

Barbarians and Fighters can use all ranged weapons but shurikens.
Rangers and Paladins can use all ranged weapons but shurikens and heavy crossbows.
Bards can use all ranged weapons but shurikens, heavy crossbows and 2 handed Blunder weapons.

I don't see any reason to knock Bards off the +2/4 Slayer bows.

That being said, the Slayer bows don't follow a typical relic/legendary progression where its the same item getting larger and larger enhancement bonuses. The +2 Keen Slayer Bow is pretty not simply a +1 enhanced +2 Keen Longbow.

Lady Brittany wrote: However once the keen Longbow is transmuted to the keen Slayer Bow Bard is dropped from the list of classes able to use it and is also not able to use Io's Bow. Which confuses me since the Keen Longbow is a main ingredient to make the other two. So I would like to know why Bard was dropped from the classes able to use this awesome legendary and the transmute. If it's a matter of Dex requirement I'm pretty sure Bards can still meet the required 20 but I will double check my math for that.

Balance purposes.

See but that doesn't make sense to me. If it's because it's deemed too good for a bard to have why let them be able to use the +2 Keen Longbow? And if it's their best ranged weapon wouldn't it get more bards to try and work towards that? At this point that pretty hard to do. How can a weapon be to good for a Bard to use? Wasn't Widseth's designed so we could be more active in combat? And if we use that shouldn't we be able to use the best possible thing if we are willing to put the time and effort the other classes are to make it?

Lady Brittany wrote: See but that doesn't make sense to me. If it's because it's deemed too good for a bard to have why let them be able to use the +2 Keen Longbow? And if it's their best ranged weapon wouldn't it get more bards to try and work towards that? At this point that pretty hard to do. How can a weapon be to good for a Bard to use? Wasn't Widseth's designed so we could be more active in combat? And if we use that shouldn't we be able to use the best possible thing if we are willing to put the time and effort the other classes are to make it?

The simple answer is that Bards are not allowed to use the +1 Mighty Longbow.

The Relic and Legendary Bows got their damages totally jacked up to make them "competitive" with the +1 Mighty Longbow. (Even though to get that insane damage with the Mighty Longbow you need lots of STR tokens, which takes slots. Whereas you just get all that extra damage for free with the Relic/Legendary Bows).

So think of the Relic/Legendary Bows is more comparable with the +1 Mighty Longbow, which the Bard CANNOT use!

How can a weapon be too good for a Bard to use? How about the Bastard Sword, the Dread Sword, the Dwarven Dire Axe, two-handed swords, Great Axes, Deathcleavers?

Yes, Widseth's does let you be more active in combat but you shouldn't expect to be as good in combat as Fighters. Similarly, Briano's will let you be more active in spellcasting but you shouldn't expect to be on par with the Wizards, Clerics, and Druids (who can use Rings of Focus which the Bard can't use).

You have to look at the bard class as a whole. Bards are generalists. They have their unique singing ability, which can already do 36 pts of damage per round in bonuses to other players, and then they can cast/fight/shoot like a lot of the other classes.

But they never do those things quite as well as the specialists do. Otherwise, they'd be superpowered. There will always be some things they can't do, if for no other reason than to keep them more balanced, even if it isn't totally logical.

Lady Brittany wrote: See but that doesn't make sense to me. If it's because it's deemed too good for a bard to have why let them be able to use the +2 Keen Longbow? And if it's their best ranged weapon wouldn't it get more bards to try and work towards that? At this point that pretty hard to do. How can a weapon be to good for a Bard to use? Wasn't Widseth's designed so we could be more active in combat? And if we use that shouldn't we be able to use the best possible thing if we are willing to put the time and effort the other classes are to make it?

A core mechanic of D&D and TD is that different classes get to use different gear. This is designed so that different classes complement one another, and have different capabilities.

Here are some examples:

• Wizards can't wear armor, shields, and can use only the simplest weapons (daggers, staves, slings).
• Clerics can't use edged or bladed weapons, or projectile weapons that fire sharp objects (bows, crossbows).
• No one but Fighters, Paladins, and sometimes Clerics can wear the heaviest armors. For example with the exception of a few niche tokens only those classes can wear AC granting helms.
• Rangers can't use 2 handed weapons or shields.
• Fighters get the best selection of weapons and armor.

So the broad answer to any "why can('t) X use Y?" is that class gearing restrictions are fundamental to the game.

That doesn't mean poor class restrictions are not possible. For example, I think it's a a bad choice that Druids can wear the Dragonscale torso armor at all, let alone when Barbarians can't.

I would say it's pretty silly that Bards can't use the Slayer bows, because they can use every other bow in the game except the +1 Mighty Longbow and the difference between the +1 Might Shortbow (which Bards can use) and the Mighty Longbow are minuscule.


Once printed it's not going to change unless it's a legitimate mistake or printing error (e.g. Rogues not listed as a class on +2 Rod of Persuasion or something like that).

There could be some justice to the argument that the Slayer bows are the best bows in the game, and are therefore reserved for the martial classes who thematically might use bows (e.g. not Monks).

Bards are not a martial class, full stop.

There is a simple solution.

Widseth's Transmute.




Bard's ARE OP.

-THOT

Let's just eliminate the bard class. Then this won't even be a discussion

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: Let's just eliminate the bars class. Then this won't even be a discussion

+1

I would be ok with losing a bard class if we added a troll race.