TOPIC: Extra Treasure Pulls v.s. Better Gear

When my brother lived in Toronto, his car broke down and he was faced with the question: what car to buy?

But then he realized the real question was, how to get around town? The answer was, don't buy a car. Their public transportation is very extensive, so he could get anywhere he needed to much, much cheaper than the car, gas, insurance, parking...

But he lived downtown a block from the tube station. If he'd lived in Hamilton, maybe it would have been a different answer.

The point is, as others hinted, you have to answer other questions before you can answer your "loot or no" question.

What difficulty do you play? What other tokens do you have? (These two help you determine how many slots you can afford to give up for loot drawing.)
How many times do you expect to play each year? (If you assume $2.75 per loot, this tells you the payback period.)

So - AoTF ($90-ish) gives 4 loot = $11/game, so about 8 games or so to payback. If you play twice a year, that's 4 years to break even. Are you comfortable with that? And are you comfortable sacrificing your neck slot to do it?
Goggles of Treasure Finding only give one, but pay back in a game or two.
CoA earn $35 per game, but will take 30 games or more to break even, depending on the deal you get, but you only give up one slot vs three. If you play a lot, and can afford it, that's the way to go in the long run. But, it's the option with the longest payback period. Unless you're made of money or play at least... I dunno, six? times a year, I'd say don't. But even "six" is debatable.

And if you Grind a lot, any greed tokens are wasted.

And no one can tell you the right answer, because there isn't one that fits everyone. There are too many personal variables.

Strictly looking at the financial return on investment often isn't the whole picture. We get a lot of fun and enjoyment from token pulls beyond the financial aspect.

Harlax wrote: It's all about that loot...

After my first run I was hooked and threw down the astronomical amount of $250. I looked at all of the purples available, but l also wasn't sure of the best route. Luckily someone suggested the Ring of Riches. I never regretted that decision.

Beertram wrote:

Harlax wrote: It's all about that loot...

After my first run I was hooked and threw down the astronomical amount of $250. I looked at all of the purples available, but l also wasn't sure of the best route. Luckily someone suggested the Ring of Riches. I never regretted that decision.

I missed that party. But I never regretted buying one later for $200 or so.

The

Mike Steele wrote: Strictly looking at the financial return on investment often isn't the whole picture. We get a lot of fun and enjoyment from token pulls beyond the financial aspect.

Like I said. Personal questions.

Others had mentioned the fun of the draw already. I didn't see anyone else talk about the economics of it. But that, from my reading of the first post, was Zach's major consideration, so that's what I focused on.

But everything is about economics, which in my mind is the study of how people weigh options and make decisions. (Economics is not really about money per se.) So, how much is it worth to you to draw a treasure? If you get a big thrill from it, change "$2.75" to a higher number to reflect your priorities.

But the analytical method is valid either way.

Brad Mortensen wrote: But everything is about economics, which in my mind is the study of how people weigh options and make decisions. (Economics is not really about money per se.) So, how much is it worth to you to draw a treasure? If you get a big thrill from it, change "$2.75" to a higher number to reflect your priorities.

I think the word you are looking for here is utility.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: But everything is about economics, which in my mind is the study of how people weigh options and make decisions. (Economics is not really about money per se.) So, how much is it worth to you to draw a treasure? If you get a big thrill from it, change "$2.75" to a higher number to reflect your priorities.

I think the word you are looking for here is utility.

Ed

No doubt

EDIT: and before someone says "I don't care about money, I care about fun," ...

Would you buy all my treasure chips for a dime each? Sure you would. That's cheap, and because fun.
Would you buy them for $100 each? I seriously doubt it, because the fun is "not worth it." (But if you would, I accept.)

So, what's the most you would you pay, or that you would ask someone else to pay you? Plug that number in for "$2.75" above

Beertram wrote:

Harlax wrote: It's all about that loot...

After my first run I was hooked and threw down the astronomical amount of $250. I looked at all of the purples available, but l also wasn't sure of the best route. Luckily someone suggested the Ring of Riches. I never regretted that decision.

Ditto my first PYP was one RoR after my first year of playing, though I might have gotten a HoP from eBay first. I don't remember the timing exactly.

Mike Steele wrote:

George wrote: What I really like is that people have several different opinions on the "right" answer to this question. It is a healthy market when different people have different goals.

Diversity is good.

"Everyday the same thing -- VARIETY! I want something different!"

Mike Steele wrote: Strictly looking at the financial return on investment often isn't the whole picture. We get a lot of fun and enjoyment from token pulls beyond the financial aspect.

Absolutely, but it is a fair question everyone should ask themselves.

People thus far definitely seem to be giving fine advice, and while not everyone's math is going to add up, it's a fair equation to at least start from. Why spend $1000 on loot tokens if you only play a few times a year and won't see a break even for a decade, when just buying extra packs and some gear might better serve those adventures?

Better gear makes for smoother runs (or so I hear), but with what people keep saying about power creep in tokens, that $100 token this year might be on par with a $3 Rare a couple of years out, at least in terms of flat bonuses (enhancement, damage, AC, etc).

What slots those tokens occupy (as an opportunity cost against what could be there otherwise) has to be weighed out as well.

That's a very high level analysis based on reading these forums and looking over tokens, not a declaration that people need to nitpick it to death, btw.

Long story short, thus far I see it kind of like Magic: the Gathering booster packs. The most efficient way to 'gear up' is to just buy the cards you want from online stores. Trying to pull them in packs is a fools errand; purchases with some trading goes a lot further, however there is indeed something fun in and of itself cracking a box of 36 packs and hoping for 'chase mythics/rares' and foils (and sometimes you're lucky enough to pull cards that you would've bought at a shop in the packs, and even some valuable ones you wouldn't have). So I can totally understand someone (who was well funded) buying up an expensive TF item or two just for extra pulls on their few runs per year (especially if time is a factor; they have the funds, they just can't take 10+ hours out of that weekend to run non-stop).

People's points about difficulty are pertinent as well. If one wants to strive for Nightmare, gearing up to deal and dish out more damage is going to be important. If just running normal for the experience, walking away with another 5/10/30/whatever tokens for the same entry price seems like a solid deal.

So... brevity be damned, yeah, I agree with people asking themselves what they want out of the experience and what will get them the most bang for their buck. Barring being independently wealthy, it's a risk/reward ratio that is at least worth glancing at.

Wow, after reading this I realize I must be in the minority. I've never drawn anything other than reds and greens and a couple monster trophies from the treasure box. I soured on the treasure pulls very early in my 7 year TD career. I get excited about kitting out my ranger slowly year by year. Once we switched to hardcore it was worth it in my opinion. Dumping all sorts of money to get a couple extra tokens that I can buy for $1-$3 each never really excited me since most of them are just going to become trade tokens anyway.

I subscribe to the "Both" camp as a answer to the topic. I believe in Better Gear AND extra pulls. But that's just how I roll. As my funds have gotten very tight I'm very thankful there are only a couple tokens I can't live without and no TE tokens for this year. When forced to choose between drawing more tokens and edging up my bonuses I favor tokens. But this is mostly because I'm geared enough to hit when I slide well and do respectable damage as needed.

My ROI is often fairly quick because I play 4 times total(1 each run each type),
not that I particularly care about ROI because I enjoy pulling out handfuls of tokens, that's fun for me even if the bulk of them is uncommon. - They are all likely just going into Plinko anyhow, because yes, with only 1 notable exception, stuff pulled is not likely to improve a character pulling at the level of treasure enhancers.

Who knows what this coming year will hold though, with 3 pulls for everyone and the boxes having "something special on a 00".

I perfectly understand someone who only plays once or twice a year tokens aren't really a big deal and neither are ones that let you draw more.

I'll cap off by saying that buying tokens from Jeff helps support the game. Without token sales the game we love wouldn't be the game we love.