TOPIC: Dealing with "wandering" Treasure Enhancers

Mike Steele wrote: That's why I suspect if people find workarounds, like loaning to strangers and getting collateral, Jeff might have to introduce new rules to stop that.

So let's just ban loaning of tokens because we are going down the path of, "this token is ok to loan, but this token isn't".

Ed

I am in full support of Jeff's official ruling...

With experience I am sure it can be made to run smoothly as it is used.

Thanks!

I'm so tired of loot discussions.

I'll agree with Arcanist. Allowing ghosting and certain types of farming without allowing other types is bogus, and creating rules based on mind reading the intentions of alleged farmers and mules is also bogus.

Is it better to ghost my extra CoA, or lend it to a newbie who might get hooked and become the next onyx buyer, even if I do keep some of the extra loot? Same revenue to TD either way. It'll certainly be SAFER for me to ghost it.

This is why I asked for a complete problem statement earlier. Everyone-carry-the-TEs-you're-wearing doesn't address anything in Druegar's original post as far as I can tell. So, it's about something else. And that's fine.

It's a shame we let the loot cap grow to the point these problems are affecting the game, but here we are.

And, rather than keeping up prices of TEs, in accordance with the the laws of unintended consequences I would guess that these rules will result in a drop in price of CoAs and URTEs. The majority of people who have more than they need will realize they have no secure way to lend them and not that many friends, so they'll start to dump them. Should Jeff care? I don't know, but he brought it up as a "pro."

But I don't know everything. There are many moving parts in this equation so I have to trust Jeff sees a bigger picture than we do.

And I get it. If everyone who goes through the dungeon is drawing 18+ loot, he has to water down the boxes. He can't give away a UR or relic with every ticket. It would be like every day is Wertzday.

I don't envy him. He's almost guaranteed to tick off half of us no matter what he does.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'm so tired of loot discussions.

I'll agree with Arcanist. Allowing ghosting and certain types of farming without allowing other types is bogus, and creating rules based on mind reading the intentions of alleged farmers and mules is also bogus.

Is it better to ghost my extra CoA, or lend it to a newbie who might get hooked and become the next onyx buyer, even if I do keep some of the extra loot? Same revenue to TD either way. It'll certainly be SAFER for me to ghost it.

This is why I asked for a complete problem statement earlier. Everyone-carry-the-TEs-you're-wearing doesn't address anything in Druegar's original post as far as I can tell. So, it's about something else. And that's fine.

It's a shame we let the loot cap grow to the point these problems are affecting the game, but here we are.

And, rather than keeping up prices of TEs, in accordance with the the laws of unintended consequences I would guess that these rules will result in a drop in price of CoAs and URTEs. The majority of people who have more than they need will realize they have no secure way to lend them and not that many friends, so they'll start to dump them. Should Jeff care? I don't know, but he brought it up as a "pro."

But I don't know everything. There are many moving parts in this equation so I have to trust Jeff sees a bigger picture than we do.

And I get it. If everyone who goes through the dungeon is drawing 18+ loot, he has to water down the boxes. He can't give away a UR or relic with every ticket. It would be like every day is Wertzday.

I don't envy him. He's almost guaranteed to tick off half of us no matter what he does.

I was in a small minority, maybe of 1 person, that advocated for an upper limit on loot with tokens that would bridge that limit with the players pulling 3-5 treasure. If the IS treasure enhancers had been limited to only equipping other IS treasure enhancers, it would have met that challenge. There were arguments, and valid ones at that, they suggested that they would not help sales of tokens if they were limited. My guess is we will just get less 'generous' loot boxes going forward.

On the ghosting vs lending, the proposed rules on TEs might encourage more people to buy up runs and run with more ghost slots. I hope that doesn't happen, because it is hard enough for 'new' players to get into a run as it is.

balthasar wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'm so tired of loot discussions.

I'll agree with Arcanist. Allowing ghosting and certain types of farming without allowing other types is bogus, and creating rules based on mind reading the intentions of alleged farmers and mules is also bogus.

Is it better to ghost my extra CoA, or lend it to a newbie who might get hooked and become the next onyx buyer, even if I do keep some of the extra loot? Same revenue to TD either way. It'll certainly be SAFER for me to ghost it.

This is why I asked for a complete problem statement earlier. Everyone-carry-the-TEs-you're-wearing doesn't address anything in Druegar's original post as far as I can tell. So, it's about something else. And that's fine.

It's a shame we let the loot cap grow to the point these problems are affecting the game, but here we are.

And, rather than keeping up prices of TEs, in accordance with the the laws of unintended consequences I would guess that these rules will result in a drop in price of CoAs and URTEs. The majority of people who have more than they need will realize they have no secure way to lend them and not that many friends, so they'll start to dump them. Should Jeff care? I don't know, but he brought it up as a "pro."

But I don't know everything. There are many moving parts in this equation so I have to trust Jeff sees a bigger picture than we do.

And I get it. If everyone who goes through the dungeon is drawing 18+ loot, he has to water down the boxes. He can't give away a UR or relic with every ticket. It would be like every day is Wertzday.

I don't envy him. He's almost guaranteed to tick off half of us no matter what he does.

I was in a small minority, maybe of 1 person, that advocated for an upper limit on loot with tokens that would bridge that limit with the players pulling 3-5 treasure. If the IS treasure enhancers had been limited to only equipping other IS treasure enhancers, it would have met that challenge. There were arguments, and valid ones at that, they suggested that they would not help sales of tokens if they were limited. My guess is we will just get less 'generous' loot boxes going forward.

On the ghosting vs lending, the proposed rules on TEs might encourage more people to buy up runs and run with more ghost slots. I hope that doesn't happen, because it is hard enough for 'new' players to get into a run as it is.

If I was in such a lucky position of 10 CoA like some here I would absolutely ghost a run instead of risking said tokens.

Would not be surprised if ghosting gets addressed again within a year.

Assuming you own multiple TE's and all you want is treasure, without a doubt it will be easier to ghost runs that to fill them with actual bodies. But it is has been easier/less hassle to ghost than fill with bought if all you wanted was treasure. I like playing with a full group and buy out runs so I don't know this is going to affect me much. Mike asked what would happen if a stranger loses a CoA. Not much different than if my friend loses one. Really am I going to berate my friend for losing something? Why would I do that to a stranger? So yeah not going to affect me much. Sure it is more tokens that people will be carrying through the dungeon, but what is 2 more tokens in the scheme of things? Just my two cents. Not advocating anything else treat this like me.

I think this is an ok compromise. If your unwilling to trust you'll get the token back then you don't loan it.
If you are willing then ok.

As for all the other stuff, I would say 1 thing at a time. Change too many variables and its hard to predict the result.

I just hope they control the checkout point. Don't let folks draw tokens right there, move it out a bit.

Any option should always allow for the guy that wants to go first in the checkout. For many reason, maybe they are on another run they are rushing too or maybe they really needs to go to the bathroom.

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: That's why I suspect if people find workarounds, like loaning to strangers and getting collateral, Jeff might have to introduce new rules to stop that.

So let's just ban loaning of tokens because we are going down the path of, "this token is ok to loan, but this token isn't".

Ed

I think Jeff made it clear he wants to let people loan TE tokens to friends they are on a run with, but not strangers. I think he's trying to find some sort of reasonable compromise where people can get use out of their TE Tokens, but still keep some controls on it to keep the total number of token draws under control.

The way he's trying to do that is by making so you have to trust them enough to hand them up to $1K or more worth of tokens for a couple of hours, and be sure you'll get it back. If you work out some method of loaning them to strangers (including Newbies you don't know) bypassing the trust issue, like getting some sort of collateral, that's clearly going against at least the spirit of the ruling.

Loaning to Friends / Family = OK. Loaning to strangers = Not OK.

jedibcg wrote: Assuming you own multiple TE's and all you want is treasure, without a doubt it will be easier to ghost runs that to fill them with actual bodies. But it is has been easier/less hassle to ghost than fill with bought if all you wanted was treasure. I like playing with a full group and buy out runs so I don't know this is going to affect me much. Mike asked what would happen if a stranger loses a CoA. Not much different than if my friend loses one. Really am I going to berate my friend for losing something? Why would I do that to a stranger? So yeah not going to affect me much. Sure it is more tokens that people will be carrying through the dungeon, but what is 2 more tokens in the scheme of things? Just my two cents. Not advocating anything else treat this like me.

I guess the real question is if a Stranger said they lost it, but maybe they really lost it and maybe they just kept it. I think that's what Jeff's trying to do, raise the risk of loaning them to people you don't know / trust high enough that people won't do it.

Incognito wrote: So what do people think about the new ruling?

Seems like some players do not like physically removing their tokens and having to hand them to the players they are lending to.

Any other thoughts?

My problem (and I think the problem which several others have) is not with having to physically hand the tokens to others. It's with having those individuals carry the tokens with them for a full 2 hours.

It's not about the untrustworthiness of strangers. It's about how often things get misplaced in the dungeon, even with the best of intentions.

Raven wrote:

Incognito wrote: So what do people think about the new ruling?

Seems like some players do not like physically removing their tokens and having to hand them to the players they are lending to.

Any other thoughts?

My problem (and I think the problem which several others have) is not with having to physically hand the tokens to others. It's with having those individuals carry the tokens with them for a full 2 hours.

It's not about the untrustworthiness of strangers. It's about how often things get misplaced in the dungeon, even with the best of intentions.

That's my worry also. Some of my best friends have lost weapon tokens that I've loaned them in the Dungeons. I can handle that loss, but having them lose a $1,000 CoA token would be a serious blow. I totally trust them not to try to walk off with the tokens, but having that many TE Tokens floating around for the whole adventure, and trying to gather them all up in the Epilogue room as everyone is rushing to their next event is worrisome.

Raven wrote:

Incognito wrote: So what do people think about the new ruling?

Seems like some players do not like physically removing their tokens and having to hand them to the players they are lending to.

Any other thoughts?

My problem (and I think the problem which several others have) is not with having to physically hand the tokens to others. It's with having those individuals carry the tokens with them for a full 2 hours.

It's not about the untrustworthiness of strangers. It's about how often things get misplaced in the dungeon, even with the best of intentions.

This is exactly my thought. I generally have to replace at least 1 token a year when I host runs. due to it getting misplaced or dropped mid dungeon