TOPIC: Re: Dragonscale

You know, lets cut to the chase if this rogue thing is an issue. I'll join the bandwagon to remove the treasure option from the rogue boxes (I'm sure most of us have enough hammer and spikes anyway) and all of those who've raised that point jump on the campaign to get the druid balanced. We'll see if we can get both of those fixed together. Works, right¹?<br /><br /><br />¹: Assuming the whole rogue thing wasn't yet another arguement fallacy tossed out.

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<br />The Rogue is the only class that can get upwards of 6+ extra tokens (possibly even a t-shirt) per run...<br />

<br /><br />Alright. I'll bite. Please cite when there was an oppertunity for the rogue to get 6 additional tokens unavaliable to any other class. (In your answer, please remember the existance of knock scrolls)<br />

<br /><br /><br />Which is trading one token for another token. Net gain = 0.<br /><br />Net gain for the Rogue = 6+<br /><br />Bards and Wizards can be gaining those tokens, but it's *costing* them tokens (and Knock scrolls are rather valuable) in turn.

You're still not explaining this 6+ idea. Please delineate it. I'll even keep the knock thing on the back burner for the time being. How does the rogue get not just 6, but now 6+ extra tokens?

<br />You're still not explaining this 6+ idea. Please delineate it. I'll even keep the knock thing on the back burner for the time being. How does the rogue get not just 6, but now 6+ extra tokens?<br />

<br /><br />Right, I think the number of 6 is inflated.  The number of possible bonus tokens the Rogue can get is equal to the number of trap boxes in the dungeon that the rogue can pick for either a clue or treasure (or just treasure, I'm not sure if all offered clues).  I don't think that number was 6, but it was at least 3-4.  <br /><br />I know this is rehashing an old issue, so I'm not going to dwell on it, but I'd prefer the option of either a clue or a token for the entire party.  And I'd make the chests knock-proof (make the thief essential).  <br /><br />Just keep your hands off those Druid Stats!  For those without Ultra-rares (the vast majority of players), that's the only thing that makes the Druid class remotely close to the Platemail/Large Shield/Great Helm wearing Cleric. 

I thought we agreed that the Cleric was more powerful than the Druid, no?   :|<br /><br />Pointing to a bead compared to naming a leaf is like multiple choice vs. fill in the blank.  <br /><br />But even assuming a player knows nothing and completely guesses, Druids will heal 12HPs (5/5/1/1).  The Cleric will heal on average 1(x2) point for the 1HP heals,  4.5(x3) for the 8HP heals, 12.5(x2) for the 16HP heals.  This is 40HPs.  <br /><br />Beads<br />1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14<br /><br />But even assuming that the Druid is the most powerful, save and Dex bonuses help the *druid* live; they don't help the party live.  50HPs of healing (or even 40HPs) is like bringing along 3 extra players to be damage sponges.  And they have great armor potential and decent damage potential.<br /><br />So if we are going to discuss character tweaks, its pretty clear that it needs to start with the Cleric.

So, you're arguing for the druid because of the newbies who decide to play it? The druid gets it's best AC from a common, AC 4 from reinforced leather. That would give the druid with just that piece of common armor an AC of 7. A cleric equally equipped would have an AC of, well, 4. In the world of a newbie with few tokens, the druid is clearly superior. So I'm not sure the arguement that a newbie's perspective would be against a cut works out. It's obviously far better from someone with a good stash of tokens who might have uncommons and rares. Even then, since there's often an enhanced emphasis on armoring tanks first, it's a conundrum that faces the higher end of the scale. Newbies and those with a few pouches to their name really don't come into play.<br /><br />If the concern is balance, and as you and others have stated that you feel the rogue is unbalanced, I think we could adress both points. Again, unless the rogue argeuemnt is just a purposeful red herring. As we suggest fixes to the rogue, like making having it be clue only or maybe rogue gets a point of healing or some non-token solution, you and others who claim to care for balance recognize the problems with the druid once the rogue is fixed.

And I agree with the cleric too. We have some heal creep happening thorugh items. It's a good oppertunity phase out a little of the cleric's healing ability. That would provide a slight shift over to using consumables more, which is in TD's best interests anyway from a token selling point of view.<br /><br />Also, your math is off a bit. In the cleric analysis, you take into consideration the liklihood the cleric gets it right by averaging that possibility in. That is not done iwth the druid. It's a minor point but there you are. <br /><br />On a sidenote, is healing always a minimum of 1? Does that mean you don't get asked about beads for the cure minor wounds or if you're wrong, do you get nothing?<br /><br />On another sidenote, I asked earlier but I assume no one knew the answer when there was no answer. Is there an order the cleric beads are counted? Do they always go in one direction? Lets say the right answer is bead 5 but I guessed bead 3. Is that -2 HP or is it basically 1 HP of heal because it'd count around from 5+ until it hit 3 again.

<br />For those without Ultra-rares (the vast majority of players), that's the only thing that makes the Druid class remotely close to the Platemail/Large Shield/Great Helm wearing Cleric.  <br />

<br /><br />Right.  Mike makes a good point.  Without URs, the Druid has an average AC (what, 17 with existing tokens?).  If the Dex bonus is removed, the Druid becomes one of the weaker classes for people who don't have URs which are the majority of players.<br /><br />The Druid is only really "overpowered" when people have the 3 URs (2 of which are no longer in print) that make his AC one of the best.<br /><br />

<br />Also, your math is off a bit. In the cleric analysis, you take into consideration the liklihood the cleric gets it right by averaging that possibility in. That is not done iwth the druid. It's a minor point but there you are. <br />

<br /><br />That could be, lets see.  Oh, I see what you are saying.  No, I was going by worst case scenario (i.e. a player knows nothing).  I assumed the likelihood of guessing the name of a leaf that you don't know was virtually zero.  If you memorized all of the leaf names and just didn't know how to match them to the pictures, this would be a ~7% chance to get +3HPs.  Anyway, still small.<br /><br />

<br />On a sidenote, is healing always a minimum of 1? Does that mean you don't get asked about beads for the cure minor wounds or if you're wrong, do you get nothing?<br />

<br /><br />I assumed the minimum was 1.<br /><br />

<br />On another sidenote, I asked earlier but I assume no one knew the answer when there was no answer. Is there an order the cleric beads are counted? Do they always go in one direction? Lets say the right answer is bead 5 but I guessed bead 3. Is that -2 HP or is it basically 1 HP of heal because it'd count around from 5+ until it hit 3 again.<br />

<br /><br />I assumed it was the shortest distance to the correct bead but I could be wrong. 

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<br />For those without Ultra-rares (the vast majority of players), that's the only thing that makes the Druid class remotely close to the Platemail/Large Shield/Great Helm wearing Cleric.  <br />

<br /><br />Right.  Mike makes a good point.  Without URs, the Druid has an average AC (what, 17 with existing tokens?).  If the Dex bonus is removed, the Druid becomes one of the weaker classes for people who don't have URs which are the majority of players.<br /><br />The Druid is only really "overpowered" when people have the 3 URs (2 of which are no longer in print) that make his AC one of the best.<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br />To which my response is, why would it make sense for a druid to have more AC than a rogue from a dex perspective and overall. Without UR's in the mix, a druid's best AC right now is 18 (2 commons). A rogue's best AC on the otherhand is also 18 but requires a rare. Knock a rogue down the equivalent rarity and a rogue has an AC of 7. That dosen't seem quite right to me. You'd think the rogue would depend on his dex with light armors. Why would the druid be just as dextrous? I guess it comes back to brimstoner's original point. It just dosen't 'feel' right from a d&d perspective. It's like if the fighter had a 16 dex equal to the rogue.  It just dosen't seem right that they would have those stats going from a classic archetype perspective.<br /><br />

<br />To which my response is, why would it make sense for a druid to have more AC than a rogue from a dex perspective and overall. Without UR's in the mix, a druid's best AC right now is 18 (2 commons). A rogue's best AC on the otherhand is also 18 but requires a rare. Knock a rogue down the equivalent rarity and a rogue has an AC of 7. That dosen't seem quite right to me. You'd think the rogue would depend on his dex with light armors. Why would the druid be just as speedy as the rogue?<br />

<br /><br />To which I would respond, you are right.  The Rogue needs more Dex. 

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<br />On another sidenote, I asked earlier but I assume no one knew the answer when there was no answer. Is there an order the cleric beads are counted? Do they always go in one direction? Lets say the right answer is bead 5 but I guessed bead 3. Is that -2 HP or is it basically 1 HP of heal because it'd count around from 5+ until it hit 3 again.<br />

<br /><br />I assumed it was the shortest distance to the correct bead but I could be wrong.  <br />

<br /><br />It's based on a 'wheel' that the DMs have, so it's shortest distance according to that wheel.