TOPIC: Bliss Bull Shield Sleaze Question?

Ok, from an character generator view, preventing all the varieties of skirting rules mentioned here will be difficult. Preventing strength bonuses from the Ranged Offhand is easy enough, but several posts deal with having a different shield in the Melee Offhand from the one in the Ranged Offhand. Whether for set bonus purposes or other, it seems like the primary issue is having two different shields equipped. I am considering a change for the next rev, that would prevent this.

Proposed: if the character has a shield equipped in the melee offhand, the only shield that will show up in the list for the Ranged Offhand, will be the same shield. There are a few non shield items that could still be equipped. Bottle of Bubbles, or Archer's Buckler for a 2 handed Ranged Weapon. If the Melee Offhand has an Orb of Might or similar non-shield item, all the shields are available in the Ranged Offhand.

If that is the way we want it to work, the next question is what happens if the Ranged Offhand is equipped first? Should the generator limit the Melee Offhand to the same shield as the Ranged Offhand? Or allow any shield, and if it does not match, empty the Ranged Offhand slot, or change it to match the Melee Offhand?

Otherwise, I see all kinds of sleaze options. Shields that give a bonus for reflex (Darkthorn Shield), or bonus to fortitude (Fee Yew Shield), and the list goes on.

Cranston wrote: Ok, from an character generator view, preventing all the varieties of skirting rules mentioned here will be difficult. Preventing strength bonuses from the Ranged Offhand is easy enough, but several posts deal with having a different shield in the Melee Offhand from the one in the Ranged Offhand. Whether for set bonus purposes or other, it seems like the primary issue is having two different shields equipped. I am considering a change for the next rev, that would prevent this.

Proposed: if the character has a shield equipped in the melee offhand, the only shield that will show up in the list for the Ranged Offhand, will be the same shield. There are a few non shield items that could still be equipped. Bottle of Bubbles, or Archer's Buckler for a 2 handed Ranged Weapon. If the Melee Offhand has an Orb of Might or similar non-shield item, all the shields are available in the Ranged Offhand.

If that is the way we want it to work, the next question is what happens if the Ranged Offhand is equipped first? Should the generator limit the Melee Offhand to the same shield as the Ranged Offhand? Or allow any shield, and if it does not match, empty the Ranged Offhand slot, or change it to match the Melee Offhand?

Otherwise, I see all kinds of sleaze options. Shields that give a bonus for reflex (Darkthorn Shield), or bonus to fortitude (Fee Yew Shield), and the list goes on.

I wouldn't make your generator more restrictive than the actual rules, that seems bad.

Restricting users to only one shield in the builder though might be a resonable coaching rule to cut off many confusing scenarios (so long as shields can still be switched in the dungeon for things like Shield of the Scholar or Prism Shield)

I'd be fine with a "no 2 different offhand items" rule with a few exceptions (like Archer's Buckler), if that simplifies things.

Please don't nerf the set bonus rule though. Barbarians want to use 2H melee and Redoubt Shield in ranged for the set bonus. If that is changed I would have to give up the Redoubt Set bonus (because the 2H melee bonus is better) and that would feel really bad considering how many resources I have put into transmuting Redoubt pieces.

MasterED wrote: can you reference the Player or DM guide page number violating Matthew's question?

Every one of Matthew Hayward's scenarios had the Bliss Bull Shield in the ranged offhand slot but not in the melee offhand slot. Therefore, the STR bonus should not apply to melee stats in any of those situations. I'm not sure why this is even being questioned. What am I not seeing?

As far as set bonuses go, this is what the rules say (remember, a shield is a hand-held item):
When a set bonus is achieved by equipping a weapon, shield, orb, or anything held in (not worn on) the hand, the hand-held item is "locked in" for that mode of combat. Therefore:

• If you equip a hand-held item in a melee slot to fulfill a set bonus, you must keep that specific hand-held item equipped if you choose to engage in melee combat.
• If you equip a hand-held item in a ranged slot to fulfill a set bonus, you must keep that specific hand-held item equipped if you choose to engage in physical ranged combat.

You may temporarily swap one or both hand-held set-piece items (either melee for ranged or ranged for melee) and maintain the set's bonus. However, the bonuses granted by the individual "lost" item(s) won't apply. E.g., a ranger using Scepter, Orb, and Boots of Might to gain a level may swap out the scepter and orb to use a ranged weapon, but may not use any other melee weapons. During the swap-out, the ranger loses the +2 Strength bonus granted by the Orb of Might, but maintains the +1 level granted by the Might set.

Thanks for the clarifications everyone.

I find these types of posts very helpful for some of us without as much in depth knowledge. And since I usually end up equipping half my party - it's good to know that I don't violate the rules while just playing around with the character builders.

Druegar wrote:

MasterED wrote: can you reference the Player or DM guide page number violating Matthew's question?

Every one of Matthew Hayward's scenarios had the Bliss Bull Shield in the ranged offhand slot but not in the melee offhand slot. Therefore, the STR bonus should not apply to melee stats in any of those situations. I'm not sure why this is even being questioned. What am I not seeing?

As far as set bonuses go, this is what the rules say (remember, a shield is a hand-held item):
When a set bonus is achieved by equipping a weapon, shield, orb, or anything held in (not worn on) the hand, the hand-held item is "locked in" for that mode of combat. Therefore:

• If you equip a hand-held item in a melee slot to fulfill a set bonus, you must keep that specific hand-held item equipped if you choose to engage in melee combat.
• If you equip a hand-held item in a ranged slot to fulfill a set bonus, you must keep that specific hand-held item equipped if you choose to engage in physical ranged combat.

You may temporarily swap one or both hand-held set-piece items (either melee for ranged or ranged for melee) and maintain the set's bonus. However, the bonuses granted by the individual "lost" item(s) won't apply. E.g., a ranger using Scepter, Orb, and Boots of Might to gain a level may swap out the scepter and orb to use a ranged weapon, but may not use any other melee weapons. During the swap-out, the ranger loses the +2 Strength bonus granted by the Orb of Might, but maintains the +1 level granted by the Might set.

Thanks Druegar. One more clarification please. This text seems to contradict with page 22 of the PHG:

From page 22 of the old/current player's guide:

---

When a set contains a weapon, shield,
orb, or anything held in (not worn on)
the hand, the hand-held item must be
used when engaging in its respective
mode of combat. E.g., players using a
melee weapon to fulfill a set bonus may
only use that specific weapon if they
choose to engage in melee combat.
Players using a ranged weapon to fulfill
a set bonus may only use that specific
weapon if they choose to make a
physical ranged attack. Players using a
shield to fulfill a set bonus may not use
any other shield. Multiple sets may be
utilized provided all the requisite pieces
may be worn without violating physical
limits.

I am assuming you will remove or correct that text for the new revision that is soon to be released?

Ed

I think the rule should be that your ranged shield must be melee shield (if you have one) or an Archers Buckler, whether it’s part of a set or not, just to avoid all these headaches.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I think the rule should be that your ranged shield must be melee shield (if you have one) or an Archers Buckler, whether it’s part of a set or not, just to avoid all these headaches.

Would that prevent a player using a two handed weapon in Melee from using a shield in ranged?

Harlax wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I think the rule should be that your ranged shield must be melee shield (if you have one) or an Archers Buckler, whether it’s part of a set or not, just to avoid all these headaches.

Would that prevent a player using a two handed weapon in Melee from using a shield in ranged?

No.

I’m trying to say that, if you’re using a shield in melee and in ranged, then it’s the same shield. Unless your ranged weapon is two-handed - then you can use a Buckler instead.

Also, I don’t think it’s “sleaze.”

The original Orb sleaze was non-ranger/monk characters using a melee weapon (Orb) in ranged off-hand. That, upon reflection, is just flat wrong on multiple levels.

Two-handed melee and shield in ranged is legit. Some object if the player has zero intention of using their ranged weapon, but I don’t think rules that rely on mindreading are enforceable.

MasterED wrote: This text seems to contradict with page 22 of the {outdated} PHG

The old Players Guide is out of date and should not be used as a rules reference. That's why it's no longer listed on the Resources page. The old Players Guide will be replaced by the new Player's Handbook Soon ^TM . The current versions of the DMG and QTR have the updated text in my previous post in this thread.

Druegar wrote:

MasterED wrote: can you reference the Player or DM guide page number violating Matthew's question?

Every one of Matthew Hayward's scenarios had the Bliss Bull Shield in the ranged offhand slot but not in the melee offhand slot. Therefore, the STR bonus should not apply to melee stats in any of those situations. I'm not sure why this is even being questioned. What am I not seeing?

Here were the issue(s), prior to your clarifications:

1. Do stat boosting items held in the hands convey their bonus at all times, or only when held?

I don't think it's inherently nuts that either "yes" or "no" could be the answer to this, and it doesn't seem to be covered explicitly in the rules (or if it is I can't find it).

2. This confusion is seeded in part because of how set bonuses work, where the set bonus powers for things held in hands do convey their set bonuses at all times, and not only when held (although under tougher re-equipping restrictions).

3. All current character builders I am familiar with perform calculations in violation of the rules you have expressed here, as if stat boosts from the melee hands applied to ranged and vice versa.

Since these are usually reliable guides as to how things work, but it seemed like this may be an error, I kicked off this discussion.