TOPIC: Ethics of Selling/Buying Medallions of Nobility

During GenCon I was at the Exhibit Hall and saw that Gaming Etc. was selling a Medallion of Nobility for $40. I commented to someone I know about how I thought that was unethical. Michelle, the owner of Gaming Etc., happened to be near by and heard my comment. She got very angry, asking me by what right do I have to call her unethical. We then had a brief argument about the ethics of selling Medallions of Nobility.

Gaming Etc.'s position was that they were doing nothing illegal and were just trying to make some money. They said the onus was on whoever sold the Medallions. Michelle also said that she doesn't really know much about tokens (despite selling them).

My position is that the Medallion is supposed to simply represent your 5th level status. 5th level status is not supposed to be transferable. There is the very real danger that newbies might purchase the token thinking that it gives them an extra treasure coin (which it shouldn't if they aren't 5th level), which is likely considering that Gaming Etc. didn't really know how the Medallion worked. There is also the danger that people will buy the token and misrepresent themselves as 5th level when they aren't, using the Medallion to "prove" it.

I think there is a difference between legality and morality/ethics. Even though selling the Medallion is legal, I don't think it is ethical. Similarly, I don't think it would be ethical to buy/sell Cogwind Medallions, since Jeff specifically asked people not to do so (but didn't outright ban that).

Some analogous situations might be selling novelty diplomas (that are very similar to real ones). Although it may be legal, the vast majority of customers are going to be using it for unethical reasons.

Also, I wasn't too convinced by the "ignorance" excuse. If Gaming Etc. is in the token business, then they should really know about what they are buying and selling!

I did mention to my friend that in some ways, this could actually be a "Good" thing because it provides a concrete example of selling XP items.

Oh, and one of the Gaming Etc. employees responded that if I have such a problem with selling Medallions of Nobility then why don't I create my own store that doesn't sell them. I mentioned that there are already lots of token shops (mainly run by forumites) that don't buy/sell Medallions of Nobility. So since we're on this issue, this would be a good opportunity for token stores to affirm whether or not they are willing to buy/sell Medallions of Nobility (and Cogwind Medallions).

My opinion (fwiw), is that there is nothing wrong ethically wanting to buy or sell a medallion for purposes of collecting tokens. It's unfortunate if Gaming etc overreacted to your comment (which doesn't sound like it was intended for them to hear), but they are just selling a token. Nothing wrong there.

If anything is unethical, it would be people passing themselves off as 5th level when they are not. Just my opinion.

Dave wrote: My opinion (fwiw), is that there is nothing wrong ethically wanting to buy or sell a medallion for purposes of collecting tokens. It's unfortunate if Gaming etc overreacted to your comment (which doesn't sound like it was intended for them to hear), but they are just selling a token. Nothing wrong there.

If anything is unethical, it would be people passing themselves off as 5th level when they are not. Just my opinion.

+1

Incognito wrote: During GenCon I was at the Exhibit Hall and saw that Gaming Etc. was selling a Medallion of Nobility for $40. I commented to someone I know about how I thought that was unethical. Michelle, the owner of Gaming Etc., happened to be near by and heard my comment. She got very angry, asking me by what right do I have to call her unethical. We then had a brief argument about the ethics of selling Medallions of Nobility.

Gaming Etc.'s position was that they were doing nothing illegal and were just trying to make some money. They said the onus was on whoever sold the Medallions. Michelle also said that she doesn't really know much about tokens (despite selling them).

My position is that the Medallion is supposed to simply represent your 5th level status. 5th level status is not supposed to be transferable. There is the very real danger that newbies might purchase the token thinking that it gives them an extra treasure coin (which it shouldn't if they aren't 5th level), which is likely considering that Gaming Etc. didn't really know how the Medallion worked. There is also the danger that people will buy the token and misrepresent themselves as 5th level when they aren't, using the Medallion to "prove" it.

I think there is a difference between legality and morality/ethics. Even though selling the Medallion is legal, I don't think it is ethical. Similarly, I don't think it would be ethical to buy/sell Cogwind Medallions, since Jeff specifically asked people not to do so (but didn't outright ban that).

Some analogous situations might be selling novelty diplomas (that are very similar to real ones). Although it may be legal, the vast majority of customers are going to be using it for unethical reasons.

Also, I wasn't too convinced by the "ignorance" excuse. If Gaming Etc. is in the token business, then they should really know about what they are buying and selling!

I did mention to my friend that in some ways, this could actually be a "Good" thing because it provides a concrete example of selling XP items.

Oh, and one of the Gaming Etc. employees responded that if I have such a problem with selling Medallions of Nobility then why don't I create my own store that doesn't sell them. I mentioned that there are already lots of token shops (mainly run by forumites) that don't buy/sell Medallions of Nobility. So since we're on this issue, this would be a good opportunity for token stores to affirm whether or not they are willing to buy/sell Medallions of Nobility (and Cogwind Medallions).

i have bought a few collections over the years. The token was in there. I waited until a fall night. Built a great fire, waited until the coals were nice and hot. Then put the token on there and watched it go up in flames

Oh.. I think they know very little about the tokens to be honest. After reviewing their shop recently a few of us were joking about some of the values. The fizzy lifting pack, was the target of a lot of ridicule. Its by many accounts a really crappy UR because the potion of leaping attack is superior. They had the value at like $150 or more or something crazy, i guess because of collectors perhaps?... Who knows but its doubtful it commands that kind of price and this wasn't the only token like that.

They sell a lot more than tokens and set prices by whatever means they decide which is fine. Its their business and they can sell for whatever they want. They didn't solicit my advice nor did I offer it, but I would suggest that Michelle was being honest when she said she really didn't know the tokens very well.

There are some legit reason you might want to buy one, if perhaps you lost yours. I know some of my crew lost theirs. I'm not going to pay $40 to replace it but someone might. But yes, its a little sketchy if it was being marketed as a treasure enhancer although I don't believe that was the case.

Dave wrote: My opinion (fwiw), is that there is nothing wrong ethically wanting to buy or sell a medallion for purposes of collecting tokens. It's unfortunate if Gaming etc overreacted to your comment (which doesn't sound like it was intended for them to hear), but they are just selling a token. Nothing wrong there.

If anything is unethical, it would be people passing themselves off as 5th level when they are not. Just my opinion.

Do you think most people buy tokens for the purpose of collecting or for the purpose of using? How about in the case of a Medallion of Nobility?

For example, I would say the vast majority of people who buy a Charm of Avarice or an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget are doing so for the purposes of using. Not just to sit in a collection, unused. Would you agree with that assessment?

I just want to state that I am not defending Michelle actions but looking at it from a legal perspective.

Also, for the difference between ethics and morals - this is a moral issue - do not buy it if it bothers you.

Ethics and morals relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. While they are sometimes used interchangeably, they are different: ethics refer to rules provided by an external source, e.g., codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions. Morals refer to an individual's own principles regarding right and wrong. People collect tokens, some may want one for their collection and have one to carry with them at the cons. If someone purchases one to misrepresent themselves that is their moral issue not Michelle. She is selling collectible tokens.

I think this falls into more the moral issue not the ethic issue. Michelle is correct it is not illegal, it may be morally wrong to some of us but again it is not illegal.

As for Michelle not knowing the tokens, while this might be true, her employees sure do! Last year my son saw the Medallion of Nobilty in the $2 box and pulled it out, the employee said let me have that it does not belong in that box. A few hours later it was for sale at $25. So the "ignorance' excuse for Michelle might be true, but not for her employees.

Question:

1. Is there away to order another Medallion of Nobility if you lose one? Because if you cannot order another one, then stores are the only way to replace it if lost.
2. If you have the level 7 badge or level 8 pin do you need to show the Medallion of Nobility? We did a few times even though we have level 7 badges.

Kaledor wrote: I just want to state that I am not defending Michelle actions but looking at it from a legal perspective.

Also, for the difference between ethics and morals - this is a moral issue - do not buy it if it bothers you.

Ethics and morals relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. While they are sometimes used interchangeably, they are different: ethics refer to rules provided by an external source, e.g., codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions. Morals refer to an individual's own principles regarding right and wrong. People collect tokens, some may want one for their collection and have one to carry with them at the cons. If someone purchases one to misrepresent themselves that is their moral issue not Michelle. She is selling collectible tokens.

I think this falls into more the moral issue not the ethic issue. Michelle is correct it is not illegal, it may be morally wrong to some of us but again it is not illegal.

Yes, I certainly agree that it is not "illegal."

My point is that I don't think it is ethical. Neither is fleecing or taking advantage of newbies (which is not illegal). Neither is taking advantage of grieving family members after a TD player has died (which is not illegal).

I personally don't think it is the type of behavior that the TD community (an external source) should condone. But that is just my opinion.

FYI: When I talked with Brad Mortensen, his opinion is that a few years ago he wouldn't have thought of it as unethical, but now that it is used for "proving" XP status, he does think it is unethical. Kirk Bauer also thought it was generally unethical, with the exception if it was specifically to a collector.

For some other examples:

- If someone sold "faux/fake" TD tokens but which were clearly labeled as such, do you think that would be ethical? (The issue being that people would likely buy these and pass them off as real).

- There are also situations with antiquities and things made out of endangered animals where in some countries they are illegal and in other countries they are legal. But even when they are "legal," is it ethical to sell them?

1. Is there away to order another Medallion of Nobility if you lose one? Because if you cannot order another one, then stores are the only way to replace it if lost.
2. If you have the level 7 badge or level 8 pin do you need to show the Medallion of Nobility? We did a few times even though we have level 7 badges.

1. If you talk to Jeff, I'm am fairly certain he will replace it.

2. No. You only need to show one of the Medallion of Nobility OR the purple badge holder OR the pin.

valetutto wrote: There are some legit reason you might want to buy one, if perhaps you lost yours. I know some of my crew lost theirs. I'm not going to pay $40 to replace it but someone might. But yes, its a little sketchy if it was being marketed as a treasure enhancer although I don't believe that was the case.

I think it would be different if it was clearly labeled as a novelty token and that it was explained how the mechanic works and how using it would be misrepresenting your XP level. And while that might pass muster under the current system, the procedures could very well change so that it doesn't give you any benefit.

Incognito wrote:

Kaledor wrote: I just want to state that I am not defending Michelle actions but looking at it from a legal perspective.

Also, for the difference between ethics and morals - this is a moral issue - do not buy it if it bothers you.

Ethics and morals relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. While they are sometimes used interchangeably, they are different: ethics refer to rules provided by an external source, e.g., codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions. Morals refer to an individual's own principles regarding right and wrong. People collect tokens, some may want one for their collection and have one to carry with them at the cons. If someone purchases one to misrepresent themselves that is their moral issue not Michelle. She is selling collectible tokens.

I think this falls into more the moral issue not the ethic issue. Michelle is correct it is not illegal, it may be morally wrong to some of us but again it is not illegal.

Yes, I certainly agree that it is not "illegal."

My point is that I don't think it is ethical. Neither is fleecing or taking advantage of newbies (which is not illegal). Neither is taking advantage of grieving family members after a TD player has died (which is not illegal).

I personally don't think it is the type of behavior that the TD community (an external source) should condone. But that is just my opinion.

FYI: When I talked with Brad Mortensen, his opinion is that a few years ago he wouldn't have thought of it as unethical, but now that it is used for "proving" XP status, he does think it is unethical. Kirk Bauer also thought it was generally unethical, with the exception if it was specifically to a collector.

For some other examples:

- If someone sold "faux/fake" TD tokens but which were clearly labeled as such, do you think that would be ethical? (The issue being that people would likely buy these and pass them off as real).

- There are also situations with antiquities and things made out of endangered animals where in some countries they are illegal and in other countries they are legal. But even when they are "legal," is it ethical to sell them?

1. Is there away to order another Medallion of Nobility if you lose one? Because if you cannot order another one, then stores are the only way to replace it if lost.
2. If you have the level 7 badge or level 8 pin do you need to show the Medallion of Nobility? We did a few times even though we have level 7 badges.

1. If you talk to Jeff, I'm am fairly certain he will replace it.

2. No. You only need to show one of the Medallion of Nobility OR the purple badge holder OR the pin.

Several members of my group lost their Medallions of Nobility, it never occurred to me to ask Jeff to replace them. I have bought a couple to replace lost Medallions, now that they have to be shown.

It's a fine line. It was an easier call a few years ago, before MoN effectively became a soulbound TE.

I've given it more thought, and I'm gonna say, selling a MoN is analogous to selling a knife. If you sell one and it is used to commit a crime, that's the buyer's karma.

On a related note, a lot of people ask every year whether they can pick up their MoN mid-con when they qualify for it. I think some of these folks are confused.

According to the website, level 5 players do NOT get an extra treasure. That happens at level 6. And, MoN does NOT grant you treasure. It is evidence that you are a level 6 player.

www.truedungeon.com/how-to-play/item/12-rewards

It's not compelling evidence, because your name isn't printed in it, and Jeff will give you one for free at level 5. And, as Eric says, there are other less savory ways to get one. It's one of those trust things that keeps TD playable. And it's one of those things that seems to getting abused a lot. To my knowledge, the level 6 reward was never officially granted to level 5. But I have a feeling that a lot of people are claiming it, and I'm sure most of them don't realize it's wrong.

So, any player who is fifth level or below that uses a MoN to draw extra treasure is stealing, regardless of where they got it. Or maybe it's fraud. I'm not a lawyer, but whatever it is, it's a crime.

But if Jeff isn't doing anything wrong by handing out MoN at level 5, then I don't suppose gamingetc is either by selling them. It's still questionable, and I'd still counsel people not to by them without a pure heart.

Brad Mortensen wrote: It's a fine line. It was an easier call a few years ago, before MoN effectively became a soulbound TE.

I've given it more thought, and I'm gonna say, selling a MoN is analogous to selling a knife. If you sell one and it is used to commit a crime, that's the buyer's karma.

On a related note, a lot of people ask every year whether they can pick up their MoN mid-con when they qualify for it. I think some of these folks are confused.

According to the website, level 5 players do NOT get an extra treasure. That happens at level 6. And, MoN does NOT grant you treasure. It is evidence that you are a level 6 player.

www.truedungeon.com/how-to-play/item/12-rewards

It's not compelling evidence, because your name isn't printed in it, and Jeff will give you one for free at level 5. And, as Eric says, there are other less savory ways to get one. It's one of those trust things that keeps TD playable. And it's one of those things that seems to getting abused a lot. To my knowledge, the level 6 reward was never officially granted to level 5. But I have a feeling that a lot of people are claiming it, and I'm sure most of them don't realize it's wrong.

So, any player who is fifth level or below that uses a MoN to draw extra treasure is stealing, regardless of where they got it. Or maybe it's fraud. I'm not a lawyer, but whatever it is, it's a crime.

But if Jeff isn't doing anything wrong by handing out MoN at level 5, then I don't suppose gamingetc is either by selling them. It's still questionable, and I'd still counsel people not to by them without a pure heart.

A pure heart in general, or just in respects to use of MoN?