TOPIC: Thoughts on Ranged Combat/Melee hosing this year?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but melee is almost always more powerful than ranged (e.g. Ranger, Barbarian, Monk). If we never had ranged-only monsters, then people would eventually just create builds with max STR and max damage. But if that party ran into a ranged-only combat, they'd be in trouble (depending on their spell casters).

If you hose ranged and only allow melee, well you are just forcing most people to use their strongest attack, which isn't exactly a challenging situation. It would only hose the few people who focus on just ranged combat. It can (and should) happen once in a while, but I think it is far less interesting than hosing melee.

I disagree:

The ridiculously overpowered Relic/Legendary Bows give you the benefit of having lots of +damage (or +STR for Mighty) tokens but without needing to actually have those tokens or use those slots.

Ranged builds can take advantage of off-hand sleaze a lot better than melee builds.

Ranged builds get additional bonuses through ammo and Quiver of Anointment. Heck, with this year's Figurine of Power - Brownie, you can squeeze a few extra damage out of each attack with a second ammo.

Do you have an example of a Ranged build that competes with this not-quite-best-in-slot-but-close, doesn't slide 2 pucks Barbarian of mine:

+22 to hit
+25 damage, average damage 37.8
Damage subtypes of Sacred and per-dungeon choice of Cold, Fire, or Frost
Ability to drink Potion Bull's Strength as a free action

?

This build has one Legendary (Avernon's) and no Eldritch tokens.


I understand your personal beef with the relic/legandary bow, and in grind the ability to have good damage, hit, AC, and RFLX is relevant, but in the main dungeon I think STR is simply better, unless you can show me a build that outclasses these types of numbers.

It looks to me that going with Io's you're just giving up like ~20 average damage per slide in exchange for crits on 18 and 19. This is not a good trade when your max damage is ~20.

Io's bow easily wins when you have constraints based on $$$, # tokens, or # slots, due to its insane efficiency.

For example, let's suppose you have a 2-token limit.

Ranger with two +5 Viper Strike Fangs. Each weapon does 11.5 average damage (-2 against monsters immune to poison) + 1 for STR.

Ranger with Io's Bow does 15.25 average damage (+4 due to sharp shooter) and crits on 18-20. For the second token, you need a DEX buff, so I'd probably go with either Amulet of the Champion or Gloves of the Cutpurse.

In this scenario, I think the Io's Bow is definitely stronger. There are more anti-melee defenses than anti-missile. You can hit flying creatures, avoid retribution damage, etc.

Let's start with some common ground, I agree that Io's is an extremely powerful, even possible the singlemost powerful token.

But it's power level occurs in a context, and that context is: "Ranged combat is worse than Melee." So the mere fact of it's power doesn't mean that Ranged is the superior mode of combat.


Can you present a build with something like:

1. One Legendary.
2. Up to 2 Relics.
3. Up to 7 URs / exalted / enhanced.
4. Unlimited Rares / uncommons.

That compares with the +20 to hit, +25 to damage melee Barbarian above?

This may be easy, I haven't worked it out. But I don't think it's possible, and I think the only way you get to builds involving Legendary tokens out hit and damaging for Ranged versus Melee is with very artificial restrictions like "only two tokens allowed" - which is not how people who have an Io's will build.

Except the scenario is not quite as corner-case as you make it seem.

Some players have actually done X-token challenges, when each player only gets to equip X tokens. Some have advocated difficulty levels (such as for Grind) where players only get to use X tokens (I think Raven had what she called the Ten Token Challenge).

And realistically, most people really do have a budget limitation. Most don't have access to unlimited tokens. So a very realistic estimate is "what build can you make with tokens combining to $X or less?"

As for your challenge, let's see with:

1 Legendary: Io's Bow

1 Relic: Draco-Lich Claw Charm

7 URs / exalted / enhanced:
Sniper Spectacles
Bracers of Supreme Archery
Quiver of Anointment
Oil of Deadly Venom
Stu's Stupendous Pendant
Viper Strike Belt
Boots of the West Wind

Unlimited Rares/Uncommons:
Ioun Stone Quicksilver Sphere
Vicious Charm
Gloves of Archery
Pants of Retrieval
Figurine of Power - Brownie
Chaos Runestone
+2 Arrows

You get character sheet stats of +17/+11, which is really +21/+15 when using two +2 Arrows each strike. This is +21/+20 with the Quiver/Oil. Average damage of 35.25 PLUS crits on 18-20.

You get a free potion drink each combat. And you still have PLENTY of empty slots and a spare Relic too..

Incognito wrote: .

As for your challenge, let's see with:

1 Legendary: Io's Bow

1 Relic: Draco-Lich Claw Charm

7 URs / exalted / enhanced:
Sniper Spectacles
Bracers of Supreme Archery
Quiver of Anointment
Oil of Deadly Venom
Stu's Stupendous Pendant
Viper Strike Belt
Boots of the West Wind

Unlimited Rares/Uncommons:
Ioun Stone Quicksilver Sphere
Vicious Charm
Gloves of Archery
Pants of Retrieval
Figurine of Power - Brownie
Chaos Runestone
+2 Arrows

You get character sheet stats of +17/+11, which is really +21/+15 when using two +2 Arrows each strike. This is +21/+20 with the Quiver/Oil. Average damage of 35.25 PLUS crits on 18-20.

You get a free potion drink each combat. And you still have PLENTY of empty slots and a spare Relic too..

Don't forget the holly ring!

GaryM wrote:

Incognito wrote: .

As for your challenge, let's see with:

1 Legendary: Io's Bow

1 Relic: Draco-Lich Claw Charm

7 URs / exalted / enhanced:
Sniper Spectacles
Bracers of Supreme Archery
Quiver of Anointment
Oil of Deadly Venom
Stu's Stupendous Pendant
Viper Strike Belt
Boots of the West Wind

Unlimited Rares/Uncommons:
Ioun Stone Quicksilver Sphere
Vicious Charm
Gloves of Archery
Pants of Retrieval
Figurine of Power - Brownie
Chaos Runestone
+2 Arrows

You get character sheet stats of +17/+11, which is really +21/+15 when using two +2 Arrows each strike. This is +21/+20 with the Quiver/Oil. Average damage of 35.25 PLUS crits on 18-20.

You get a free potion drink each combat. And you still have PLENTY of empty slots and a spare Relic too..

Don't forget the holly ring!

And Ring of Heroism. Might as well use up that extra Relic spot!

Before I get into the below, I just want to reiterate:

1. I think Io's is a very, very powerful token.

2. I agree that in particular scenarios, it is a credible candidate for most powerful individual token.


My point in extending this discussion is to determine whether or not, right now, for parties that can equip an Io's in the main dungeon, is Ranged or Melee the superior mode of combat.

Because if Melee is the superior mode, then I feel that periodic hosing of melee at a greater frequency than ranged would lead to the outcome of people making more balanced builds, which is something I am in favor of.

So, I'd be interested to know if you disagree that right now, for parties that can equip Io's, for the main dungeon, that Melee is still the better build option in terms of hit and damage bonuses.

Incognito wrote: Except the scenario is not quite as corner-case as you make it seem.

Some players have actually done X-token challenges, when each player only gets to equip X tokens. Some have advocated difficulty levels (such as for Grind) where players only get to use X tokens (I think Raven had what she called the Ten Token Challenge).

That's fine.

We should not design the main dungeon, nor settle power level disputes, with "I'm playing by my own made up rules that maybe happen in 1 run out of 100 at most" in mind.

If I proposed a format where only one token, Bottle of Bubbles, could be equipped, it wouldn't make Monk and the spellcasters the most powerful classes, and it wouldn't prove that we need to boost Ranger.

And realistically, most people really do have a budget limitation. Most don't have access to unlimited tokens. So a very realistic estimate is "what build can you make with tokens combining to $X or less?"

Since all this discussion is occurring in the context of someone who owns a Legendary token, we should assume they have access to quite a bit.

As for your challenge, let's see with:

1 Legendary: Io's Bow

1 Relic: Draco-Lich Claw Charm

7 URs / exalted / enhanced:
Sniper Spectacles
Bracers of Supreme Archery
Quiver of Anointment
Oil of Deadly Venom
Stu's Stupendous Pendant
Viper Strike Belt
Boots of the West Wind

Unlimited Rares/Uncommons:
Ioun Stone Quicksilver Sphere
Vicious Charm
Gloves of Archery
Pants of Retrieval
Figurine of Power - Brownie
Chaos Runestone
+2 Arrows

You get character sheet stats of +17/+11, which is really +21/+15 when using two +2 Arrows each strike. This is +21/+20 with the Quiver/Oil. Average damage of 35.25 PLUS crits on 18-20.

You get a free potion drink each combat. And you still have PLENTY of empty slots and a spare Relic too..

Let's remove the Runestone, and Oil, as the Barbarian build could have them as well but doesn't.

Let's forget about the spare relic unless it can somehow generate massive stats - the 2nd relic in the Barbarian Build is Ring of Heroism, which could be replaced with Ring of the Hallowed or Ring of Enervation for similar stats.

Let's remember that the Barbarian also has plenty of slots open, so that's not a big difference maker.

Let's give you a Holly Ring.

So we're at: +17/+11 without the arrows.

Versus +22 / +25.

No comparison, melee is way better.


Now you are proposing this person burn 2 2009 rares per combat round to improve their stats. Something they can only do one room per game.

I don't think using two +2 Arrows would add +4 to hit, it would add +2.

So you would be at +19 / +15 for one room.

For the rest of the dungeon you are at +18 / +13 and burning a 2009 rare on every round of combat (This is not realistic, I doubt anyone is sitting on a stack of ~15 of these for one dungeon run).

Melee is better. Lots better.

If you allow the use of multiple rare arrows per room, then will add to the Barbarian one 2017 uncommon per room, Potion Bull's Strength, to boost their stats in every room to:

+24 / +27

versus your:

+19 / +15 in one room, and +18 / +13 in the other rooms (I guess you can have Potion Cat's Grace for +2 to hit, so make it more like +21 / +15 and +20 / +13)


I'm just not seeing it. Melee is easily dealing 10-20 more points of damage per strike, and with a higher to-hit, and without burning a rare each round of combat.

Also - the barbarian is not wearing the Sonic +5 boots, so it could easily add +5 more damage without much difficulty.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Let's remove the Runestone, and Oil, as the Barbarian build could have them as well but doesn't.

No, I don't think we should remove the Oil. The Quiver of Anointment is an important advantage that Ranged has. The Barbarian could use it but then they have to spend an action adding it (and the Ranger could add another Ranger with that action).

Let's forget about the spare relic unless it can somehow generate massive stats - the 2nd relic in the Barbarian Build is Ring of Heroism, which could be replaced with Ring of the Hallowed or Ring of Enervation for similar stats.

Let's remember that the Barbarian also has plenty of slots open, so that's not a big difference maker.

Let's give you a Holly Ring.

Okay.

So we're at: +17/+11 without the arrows.

Versus +22 / +25.

No comparison, melee is way better.

Now you are proposing this person burn 2 2009 rares per combat round to improve their stats. Something they can only do one room per game.

I don't get where you are suddenly changing the rules.

You specifically said unlimited Rares and Uncommons. And Ammo is a significant factor for Ranged builds.

If you allow the use of multiple rare arrows per room, then will add to the Barbarian one 2017 uncommon per room, Potion Bull's Strength, to boost their stats in every room to:

+24 / +27

versus your:

+19 / +15 in one room, and +18 / +13 in the other rooms (I guess you can have Potion Cat's Grace for +2 to hit, so make it more like +21 / +15 and +20 / +13)

Yes, you should allow the Barbarian to use Bull's Strength, while the Ranger should be able to use Cat's Grace.

I'm just not seeing it. Melee is easily dealing 10-20 more points of damage per strike, and with a higher to-hit, and without burning a rare each round of combat.

Also - the barbarian is not wearing the Sonic +5 boots, so it could easily add +5 more damage without much difficulty.

Ranged can hit flying, hit over hedge bushes, ignores retribution damage. Crits on 18-20. And also gets much higher AC and Reflexes in the process.

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Let's remove the Runestone, and Oil, as the Barbarian build could have them as well but doesn't.

No, I don't think we should remove the Oil. The Quiver of Anointment is an important advantage that Ranged has. The Barbarian could use it but then they have to spend an action adding it (and the Ranger could add another Ranger with that action).

Fine, I'll make a complete build, and post it. I thought we could save time by removing things we both have access too.

Pouch of Tulz and Quiver of Annointment provide the same effect with regard to oils and salves at the same action cost.

So we're at: +17/+11 without the arrows.

Versus +22 / +25.

No comparison, melee is way better.

Now you are proposing this person burn 2 2009 rares per combat round to improve their stats. Something they can only do one room per game.

I don't get where you are suddenly changing the rules.

You specifically said unlimited Rares and Uncommons. And Ammo is a significant factor for Ranged builds.

Just so we're not talking past each other, I'm trying to talk about a build that is good for the whole dungeon, not one room, Figurine of Power Brownie only allows this effect once per room, your Transmuted +5 point oil only works in one room.

If you're going to insist you have access to unlimited +2 Arrows, I'll insist I have access to unlimited Portion Dwarven Dopplebock. I think it's silly, but OK.

So, putting you back to where you were with the oil and the Runestone adding in the Ring of Holly, and assuming that two +2 arrows gets you +2 / +4, not +4 / +4, then your build, as I understand it, is:

+19 / +19 for one room (the room where you use Figurine of Power Brownie)
+19 / +17 for the other rooms (the ones where you don't)

This substitutes unlimited +3 point oils instead of the +5 point one in your build - feel free to add in another UR or transmute token.

You get +2 to hit from Potion Cat's Grace on the 2nd round and later in each room (as you have to spend your first free action on the quiver).

That is an average damage of 33.25 in one room, and 31.25 in the rest.


You get crits on 18-20, versus things that can be critted.

---

My optimized barbarian build using 1 legendary, 1 relic, 7 URs, and unlimited commons, uncommons, and rares, gets to:

+18 / +39

In every room by using one of the +3 points of damage oils, for an average damage of 51.83.

Starting in the second round, I drink potion Dwarven Dopplebock as a free action to go to:

+21 / +42

With an average damage of 54.83.





I think it's clear that +18 / + 36 on the character card, with the ability to add an oil salve or potion (including leaping attack) as a free action is way, way better than +17 / +11 on the character card with the ability to add an oil salve or portion as a free action and the ability to tack on a few points with ammo.

You have to make up +25 points of damage.

If I haven't convinced you yet, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but melee is almost always more powerful than ranged (e.g. Ranger, Barbarian, Monk). If we never had ranged-only monsters, then people would eventually just create builds with max STR and max damage. But if that party ran into a ranged-only combat, they'd be in trouble (depending on their spell casters).

Let me give you my numbers. I'm of a token class that I suspect is under-represented on these forums compared to the general TD population - aside from two +2 weapons (one melee and one ranged), mostly reds and nothing that costs over $20.

My melee stats, as a Ranger, are +8/+9 (not counting changes to the party card for this year only). At one point a few months ago, I calculated what I would have if I spent as much on a Ranged build as I did on the melee build...and I came up with +9/+5*.

And remember, that +8/+9 is effectively doubled, since I get *two* swings at +8/+9 every round.

That made me very sad, since with those numbers there's no way I can justify playing a ranged Ranger over melee, even if it is more thematically awesome. What's the point of making one swing for less damage than *either* of the two weapons I swing when I dual-wield? Might as well just go full melee and pull out a Mighty Sling on the off chance I need a ranged weapon (hey, look, I get my strength bonus anyway!).

This is why I'm actually thrilled to see melee hosed - it gives me a reason to run around with my Boom Stick without feeling like I'm intentionally nerfing myself.