TOPIC: Should Eldritch set bonuses be adjusted?

bpsymington wrote: So a couple thoughts.

I really like the 2-piece combo bonus bypassing spell resistance - I just got this - let me use it!

I don't disagree I feel DR/SR has a place in the game but I would suggest it never be 100%.

bpsymington wrote: Perhaps NM needs to add some mechanics to balance dungeon difficulty: darkstain, poison, psionics, level drain (can you imagine a 5th level character gets hit by a wight, and the DM hands over a 4th level character card and says, here you go), curses, disease, etc.

What a great idea - Incognito you listening???

Ed

MasterED wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

bpsymington wrote: Perhaps NM needs to add some mechanics to balance dungeon difficulty: darkstain, poison, psionics, level drain (can you imagine a 5th level character gets hit by a wight, and the DM hands over a 4th level character card and says, here you go), curses, disease, etc.

What a great idea - Incognito you listening???

Uh, I've done all of these in Grind before: Dark Stain (or equivalent), poison, psionics, and level drain.

With level drain, I had it so that players would lose a random spell of their highest level, along with getting a certain penalty to all their traits/rolls.

Ed's proposed set bonuses sound good.

I would like a 5 piece bonus though, even if it is not particularly strong. May equip 1 additional Ioun Stone? Something like that.

I like Ed's proposal.

I like regularizing the bonuses across all classes. It did always bug me that some of the best tokens in the game were so heavily slanted to some classes.

It's worth noting that all the X-piece Eldritch effects here are _bonuses_ on top of the already Best in Slot ish abilities of these items.

Last point - it's not entirely clear to me that Eldrich tokens should be less powerful than Legendary tokens. Legendary tokens tend to eat up roughly an 8k order's worth of trade items. Grand Eldritch transmutes each up 7 1k bonus tokens.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I like Ed's proposal.

I like regularizing the bonuses across all classes. It did always bug me that some of the best tokens in the game were so heavily slanted to some classes.

It's worth noting that all the X-piece Eldritch effects here are _bonuses_ on top of the already Best in Slot ish abilities of these items.

Last point - it's not entirely clear to me that Eldrich tokens should be less powerful than Legendary tokens. Legendary tokens tend to eat up roughly an 8k order's worth of trade items. Grand Eldritch transmutes each up 7 1k bonus tokens.

Also, Eldritch tokens require several years of commitment/investment with a long payout (many years in the future) while Legendary tokens typically only use tokens for that given year.

Eldritch tokens can only be created during a certain time period while Legendary tokens are timeless.

You know, I just noticed on TokenDB:

tokendb.com/token/rod-of-seven-parts/
tokendb.com/token/supreme-ring-of-elemental-command/
tokendb.com/token/boots-of-the-four-winds/

Supreme Ring of Elemental Command
Rod of Seven Parts
Boots of the Four Winds
Teeth of Cavadar ¹

¹ Name not finalized. The first of the seven core items required to transmute the Teeth of Cavadar (name subject to change) was printed in 2015 and the last is scheduled for 2021. After all seven core items have been printed, the 4-item Eldritch Set power is scheduled to be revealed.[/b]

This doesn't seem to include mention of the Kilt. Plus, the original 2021 timeline would occur after the Eldritch Kilt is available....

Harlax wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote: IF a change is needed, and if it's about the Kilt and Teeth, then perhaps any change should come when those become available.

I think it would be very unwise to let people collect 2 more kilts and 4 more teeth and then tranmuste them and then change the rules, rather than changing them now.

I don't disagree. Announcement of change and effective date can be different.

I think it is unwise to let people get the Eldritch Set, which are the top of the line tokens, and Lenses, and then change the rules. Especially since this has been argued about and solidified in multiple rulings on the subject. Why is this argument still going on? If the rules for the top tokens of game are changed it will hurt the integrity of the game overall.

Donald Rients wrote: I think it is unwise to let people get the Eldritch Set, which are the top of the line tokens, and Lenses, and then change the rules. Especially since this has been argued about and solidified in multiple rulings on the subject. Why is this argument still going on? If the rules for the top tokens of game are changed it will hurt the integrity of the game overall.

The Lenses of Divine Sight have already been changed.

In the past, the rules regarding Horns of Plenty changed. The circumstances also changed significantly (due to the Charm of Avarice).

The Orb of Might went through multiple changes.

There was also a major rules change about swapping tokens in slots. It used to be that you could swap any token in any slot (other than set items) but this was eventually changed so that you could only swap tokens in your hands (e.g. weapons, shields). This change had significant repercussions on just about all tokens, especially the top of the line ones (e.g. the Ring of Focus went from a must-have to something not worth a ring slot). But guess what? TD survived and most players nowadays can't even remember a time when the rule was different. (Or the gnashing of teeth that occurred when the ruling changed).

Incognito wrote:

Donald Rients wrote: I think it is unwise to let people get the Eldritch Set, which are the top of the line tokens, and Lenses, and then change the rules. Especially since this has been argued about and solidified in multiple rulings on the subject. Why is this argument still going on? If the rules for the top tokens of game are changed it will hurt the integrity of the game overall.

The Lenses of Divine Sight have already been changed.

In the past, the rules regarding Horns of Plenty changed. The circumstances also changed significantly (due to the Charm of Avarice).

The Orb of Might went through multiple changes.

There was also a major rules change about swapping tokens in slots. It used to be that you could swap any token in any slot (other than set items) but this was eventually changed so that you could only swap tokens in your hands (e.g. weapons, shields). This change had significant repercussions on just about all tokens, especially the top of the line ones (e.g. the Ring of Focus went from a must-have to something not worth a ring slot). But guess what? TD survived and most players nowadays can't even remember a time when the rule was different. (Or the gnashing of teeth that occurred when the ruling changed).

How were the Lenses of Divine Sight changed? Or do you mean that they were changed, and then changed back?

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Donald Rients wrote: I think it is unwise to let people get the Eldritch Set, which are the top of the line tokens, and Lenses, and then change the rules. Especially since this has been argued about and solidified in multiple rulings on the subject. Why is this argument still going on? If the rules for the top tokens of game are changed it will hurt the integrity of the game overall.

The Lenses of Divine Sight have already been changed.

In the past, the rules regarding Horns of Plenty changed. The circumstances also changed significantly (due to the Charm of Avarice).

The Orb of Might went through multiple changes.

There was also a major rules change about swapping tokens in slots. It used to be that you could swap any token in any slot (other than set items) but this was eventually changed so that you could only swap tokens in your hands (e.g. weapons, shields). This change had significant repercussions on just about all tokens, especially the top of the line ones (e.g. the Ring of Focus went from a must-have to something not worth a ring slot). But guess what? TD survived and most players nowadays can't even remember a time when the rule was different. (Or the gnashing of teeth that occurred when the ruling changed).

How were the Lenses of Divine Sight changed? Or do you mean that they were changed, and then changed back?

They have already been stealth errata'ed so that using them requires your free action. I noted it and complained about it here (complained about the process - I was actually fine with and maybe a little happy with the end result):

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=572&id=244366&start=36#278479

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Also, since we're on the topic of "established rulings," I still oppose offhand sleaze and would happily support (or advocate) a reversal that eliminates such abuse. Especially since ranged builds are allowed to use it while melee builds are largely prohibited (at least with the Orb of Might).

Plus, there should be better rules about switching weapons from what you used to fill out your character card, so that you can't get the +3 to hit from your +3 Rod of Niltongue when you are using your Maul of the Titans. And I think you shouldn't get + hit/damage from normal weapons when you are polymorphed! The Baton of Focus damage bonus is okay, but I don't think you should get the + to hit.

Incognito wrote: There was also a major rules change about swapping tokens in slots. It used to be that you could swap any token in any slot (other than set items) but this was eventually changed so that you could only swap tokens in your hands (e.g. weapons, shields). This change had significant repercussions on just about all tokens, especially the top of the line ones (e.g. the Ring of Focus went from a must-have to something not worth a ring slot). But guess what? TD survived and most players nowadays can't even remember a time when the rule was different. (Or the gnashing of teeth that occurred when the ruling changed).

I had always thought that you couldn't swap out an item mid-game (such as a ring). When I heard the discussions going on and that it was being changed that you couldn't swap them out I was surprised that there was a time when one could.

Donald Rients wrote:

Incognito wrote: There was also a major rules change about swapping tokens in slots. It used to be that you could swap any token in any slot (other than set items) but this was eventually changed so that you could only swap tokens in your hands (e.g. weapons, shields). This change had significant repercussions on just about all tokens, especially the top of the line ones (e.g. the Ring of Focus went from a must-have to something not worth a ring slot). But guess what? TD survived and most players nowadays can't even remember a time when the rule was different. (Or the gnashing of teeth that occurred when the ruling changed).

I had always thought that you couldn't swap out an item mid-game (such as a ring). When I heard the discussions going on and that it was being changed that you couldn't swap them out I was surprised that there was a time when one could.

I thought that was a really positive change, even though it did devalue a ton of situational tokens. It kept someone from doing something like carrying 20 different Rings with them, and waiting to put one on until it was needed. Or even carrying several different suits of armor, and switching from one to the other instantly as needed.